Kimberly Larsen

Coaching, Online Training, Counseling, and Author of Soul Set Free

These are Kimberly's favorite scriptures...

Kimberly, can you share a bit of your early life and how events like your parents' divorce and relocation impacted you and your emotional journey?

I was born into a Christian home, which provided an excellent upbringing in a small farming community. In my early childhood, I don't have any memories of ever feeling anything but loved, safe, and happy. When I was 9 years old, though, my parents divorced, and my world got a little shaken from that.

We moved off the farm and into town. So, that was a whole new world. And that is when I started to feel anxious and insecure. I knew I was loved, so nothing was terribly wrong, and yet my heart felt bruised—I had a hard time getting started again. And then as soon as I got comfortable in that place, we moved again. And I think it was like a double whammy where that pain I had already begun to feel was reinforced. And I didn't fully realize at the time that I had a broken heart because of that. I was trying to keep up with what was happening and do the best I could. And so there wasn't like one big accident or anything like that, but it was just this doubling up of the same type of pain happening twice. Kids are resilient, and so I think that, from a parent's perspective, they're doing pretty well. Even if you asked them, they would likely say, "I'm okay." I think a lot of what was going on was deeper than I understood, and it started to show up later on when I started hanging out with the wrong friends. So as a teenager, I began to walk away from my faith kind of—I never completely left my faith, as I always continued to believe in God, but I was looking for attention and friendship and love, and, you know, I didn't have a lot of parent supervision because my mom was a single mom working and my dad wasn't in the picture. We did a lot of things to keep ourselves entertained, and none of it seemed all that bad at the time. However, it eventually got worse.

You experienced an abusive relationship in your teen years that led to the beginning of spiritual battles. What were some of the doors that opened that may have caused demonic influence and oppression, and how did that affect your life?

For a long time, I thought that it was because of the abusive relationship as a young teen that the demonic oppression came, and that was the door that I had opened. Still, then, the Lord brought me back to some other memories and showed me that I started having these demonic nightmares right before the relationship began. And so that helped me to understand that it was probably a generational door that had been opened even before me. There was similar abuse in my mom's and grandmother's lives, so what happened is I started having attacks in my dreams, but then I would wake up, and I would still feel the attack. So I would feel choking happening, and this extreme, intense fear in the room. It happened over and over, almost nightly, where I was having terrifying dreams, and it went on for years and years. There were times when I woke up, and in the dream I was dreaming that somebody was banging my head, and I woke up and it was actually happening, and then I would have a headache the next day. So it was a dream, yet it was also becoming a reality. They were spiritual attacks in my sleep that are known as sleep paralysis. 

Were you able to talk to your mom about what was happening?

I kept a lot of this a secret because when I talked about it at all with people, I could sense right away that they were kind of like, What? And I just was afraid to talk about it. I didn't discuss it much. I would say to people that I was having nightmares, but I wouldn't explain to what extent. Sometimes I would have wild animals in my dreams that were chasing me. Those I would talk about. So, everybody knew that I had bad nightmares, but the actual experiences with the spirits—that part I wasn't sure how to talk about. It wasn't until later in my life, after I got married, that I started speaking up about it. And even then, people did not know what to say to me. And so, I thought it was just spiritual warfare and that this was one thing that Christians had to deal with. I learned that if I said the name of Jesus, it would stop, so I thought, 'Okay, this happens to people.' You speak Jesus' name, and then it stops. But I did not realize that I could get free of the nightmares. If you speak the name of Jesus, in that very moment, the evil one needs to flee from you. There’s a Bible verse that says… “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” James 4:7. I always thought it was resist the devil and he will flee from you. And it was later that I realized I truly understood the beginning of the verse: 'Submit to the Lord.' And so your life needs to be submitted right to Him. And when you submit to Him in your everyday life, you will not receive the same attacks as if you're only using His name to ward off a nightmare. As I walked daily with Him, I learned that I was more in authority and dominion. I had to overcome a spirit of fear because I was terrified of these evil spirits, and I'm not afraid of them anymore. If I have even the smallest experience with them now, I'm ready to fight them, and I know my authority, and I know they have to flee in Jesus’ name, but it took years of building myself up to understanding my authority, and there was a lot that I didn't understand about Christianity—there were a lot of missing pieces for me, and as those pieces came together, the stronger I became. Now, I'm not just fighting my own battles. I'm helping other people fight theirs. And we can think we know who we are, but we need to study who God says we are in Him and truly know and understand it. And in fact, I realized that it was wrong of me to believe anything less than who God says I am. And I was pretty insecure, and God doesn’t want us to have a spirit of fear. He wants us to have a spirit of power, love, and a sound mind. So if you’re somebody who is walking in timidity, you need to actually repent of that and then ask the Lord to help you grow into boldness and to be who you're called to be as a son or daughter in Christ. 

What was the turning point for you—when did you realize you needed to surrender to God fully, and what did that surrender look like?

There were a couple of turning points. One was that I got lost in addiction. I was drinking and partying all the time with my friends. I was smoking. I was even, I would say, even addicted to my friends because I felt I needed to be with them. I think I was looking for attention and love, and that's why I loved my friends so much - because I just felt like I was part of something. You know I could not stop on my own, and I got afraid and then rededicated my life to the Lord, and I was delivered from those addictions overnight. I'm so grateful that the Lord pulled me out of that. 

Secondly, when I was diagnosed with cancer for the second time—the first time was hard enough, and I prayed my way through that and survived. And then two years later, it had returned in a different area, and I kind of just gave up. And I just said, “I give up, Lord. If you want my life, take it.” I was tired of hoping and trying to stand on my faith, only to feel like it was when I received bad news. In that moment, I said to Him, "But if this is an evil attack on my life, I refuse to die early before my time." And that is when I started to experience deliverance, without even knowing what it was, because I began to cough and almost dry-heave. Then, I felt a beautiful presence come into my room. I couldn't see anything, but it was as if I were enveloped in a cloud of peace and joy. I had a beautiful experience, and the spirit of fear left me; I was no longer afraid of my situation. Even though it was still a terrifying diagnosis, I felt a presence from heaven. I just knew God was doing something, and that I needed to trust Him. So, I Googled… “Can Christians need deliverance?” Or something like that, and this YouTube channel came up that said how to be self-delivered. And as I followed through with that and prayed for renunciation, asking God to deliver me, I experienced even more deliverance. 

And for a week after that, I felt like I was walking on clouds. I was so excited—it was the most wonderful feeling, like nothing you could experience on earth, that is for sure, and so I had this self-deliverance. Then I became curious: I needed to understand what had happened to me more, and I wondered why nobody had told me about this before. I searched through the scriptures, and it's all in the Bible; Jesus performed many deliverances. Then I embarked on a longer journey, and I experienced many more significant and minor deliverances. After that, it set me on a path of inner healing because a lot of the places I needed deliverance were tied to emotional pain. And when I had that emotional pain healed, then that was when I no longer needed deliverance anymore.

Is there anything else you can encourage others about if they need deliverance, based on your experience? 

Yes. Deliverance is truth chasing away lies, just as it is when Jesus says, 'I came to set the captives free.' Much of our captivity lies within our minds, and even a tear rolling down someone's cheek who has just realized that when they thought they weren't loved, they are loved. I see that as deliverance. Some people are stuck in addiction like I was and they can't get out and when they truly ask God for help, and He makes a way for them, that's deliverance. Someone who is constantly emotionally triggered by people or circumstances. When they realize that there's a reason for the trigger that's causing them to feel angry, jealous, or insecure, if they can find out where their soul was hurt and go back to address it, they will find that they're set free and no longer triggered. And so I think a lot of deliverance has to do with emotional health. There are many things that deliverance is. God could deliver you from one place to another, or He could deliver you from believing a lie to understanding the truth. He could deliver you from a toxic relationship. Deliverance is vast, and it’s something that God has for us. He wants us delivered, set free, and walking in who we are meant to be. He wants the things that hold us back to come off of us so that we can then do the things that we are assigned to do on this earth and do His Kingdom work. And until we personally experience the deliverance we need, we are held back from reaching our full potential. Deliverance doesn't have to be scary. Some people are highly demonically oppressed, and they need serious deliverance. Others simply need to be guided through exercises using Scripture that help them with forgiveness and other aspects of their lives, because Scripture is truth. If we don’t fully understand scripture, we might need someone to help us unpack that truth. 

How is inner healing different from someone simply moving on, and what practical steps helped you walk it out?

Yeah, it's so different when you invite the Holy Spirit into a situation, like you can have freedom from a problem that you've been getting counseling for, for 20 years, in one second with the Holy Spirit. So, I would say that inner healing is about asking God to reveal the hurt places in your heart and to search your heart to find them. And you'd be surprised. They're not always the big, bad, scary things. A lot of it comes from when you're young because you don't yet have the capacity to cope emotionally. And you know, time does not heal you. In fact, it often buries and compounds issues. Jesus is what heals us. And so because He is not in time, He can go back to that place when you were a child, and you can invite Him now to come back there and have Him heal you. He can heal your memories and triggers—He’s in the business of healing people, and every time I work with someone, He shows up. So, I don't even feel like I'm doing a lot, other than facilitating an encounter that they're having with Him and encouraging them to know that, 'You think you can't hear Him, but you can.' And teaching them this is how you hear Him. And as soon as they're connected to hearing God's voice, they can move forward. When they need help with something, they simply go to Him and listen to Him. And then, so my program is actually only 3 months long. It's not a long program because we jump in and I connect them to the source, which is the Holy Spirit. And once they learn how to work with Him, they no longer need me, as they have exercises that they can use with the Holy Spirit and Scripture. 

Could you share how your ministry began, who it serves, and how you help people find freedom in Christ?

It's only been two years since this happened to me, when I experienced deliverance for the first time. Within those two years, I have taken a double degree program. I now hold degrees in business and ministry, and the Lord has also asked me to write a book. I couldn't believe God was asking me to do all He's having me do, and yet here I am, two years later, and the website is up and running. I am working with clients and getting seriously transformational results. I am always so surprised at how God shows up. 

For someone who feels stuck in pain, fear, or spiritual bondage, what word of hope would you share with them? 

Have faith in God. And if you feel that your faith is weakened or small, you need to find ways to stir it up, because it is real—the promises of God are real, so I would say, have faith and grow in your faith, your relationship with the Lord, and His Word. 

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Pastor Mark Sowersby

These are Pastor Mark's favorite scriptures...

Pastor Mark, I read your book, Forgiving The Nightmare. It’s wonderfully written. You have a remarkable healing that God has given you, and in Forgiving The Nightmare, you describe the nightmare of abuse and suffering that you have gone through for years. Can you please share what happened in your childhood?  

I’d be honored to share it with you. And again, thank you so much. When I reached out to you, I just wanted to find places where I could lift up the name of Jesus and share the testimony of where God has brought me through. Throughout my whole testimony, I don’t have the answers, but God does. So, my testimony, unfortunately, is an ugly one because it deals with abuse and neglect. Far too many people share that same testimony. At the age of seven, my mom would marry a man 20 years her junior. He came into our home, and he would abuse me in every way, shape, and form. He would emotionally, physically, sexually, and verbally abuse me and take everything from me from the ages of 7 to 14. And all those years living through that experience, I was held down and held back and just trapped in fear, insecurity, and pain. I didn’t know any other way in those seven years. The pain was the atmosphere and oxygen that I lived in. All around me was the abuse. I didn’t know any other way. And at 14 years old, I didn’t understand why I was 14 and not 13 or 12, but something clicked inside me, and I fought back. I fought back in two ways. First of all, it was a physical way. Now, it wasn’t a Rocky Balboa moment or a Mike Tyson moment, but I pushed my attacker off me, and I fought back physically. Still, at the same time, I found somebody in my family who would stick up for me, somebody who was strong enough and who believed me. I went to this loved one, and I told them about what was happening. It was a different time, as I was part of the late 1970s and early 1980s generation. People didn’t talk about things like this, even when they were happening. You didn’t tell anybody anything or deal with it or talk about it, but it was the underbelly of many people’s stories. So, from 1977 to 1984, I was being abused. And I went to this loved one, and they protected me with their might, with their power, and with their spirit. And because of those two events, at 14, I can tell you the abuse ended. And it never came back. I was never physically abused again after being 14. The abuse stopped because of those who protected me. Now, I wish I could tell you that was the end of the story. And I could say, you know, after 14, everything was peaceful and easy, but it was just the beginning of Forgiving The Nightmare. 

How did you first come to know Christ, and how did you go from just surviving to beginning to thrive? 

Well, I found myself back at my mom’s house, and I was that kind of kid who never wanted to be home and outstayed my welcome—that kid for whom they set another plate for dinner. At the time, we were living in an apartment complex, and I spent a lot of time at the pool. I was a 15-year-old kid, and I was at the pool in the middle of the courtyard. There was a lifeguard, and I think she was about 16 years old. She asked me to go to church with her, and to be honest, I would have gone anywhere that lifeguard asked me to go. She invited me to church on a Friday or midweek night, and I walked into the church, having never experienced the charismatic, evangelical, or Pentecostal expression. I never saw hands being lifted, drums being played, and guitars being strummed. And I went in there, and the youth pastor had a mullet. It was the 80s. They explained the gospel and spoke of God’s love. I knew I wanted and needed that love, but I wasn’t sure if God loved me because I didn’t like myself. The abuse stole not just a pound of flesh but also my dignity, value, importance, and so many things emotionally and psychologically. As much as it stole the flesh and took that away, I was also confused, broken, and kind of not understanding it all, but the church poured out its love for me. And on a Friday night, not too many weeks after my first visit, one of the youths was giving me a ride home. He was cool. He had a car, and I didn’t. He asked me right there in a parking lot if I wanted to make Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior, and I said what we call the sinner’s prayer. Lord, come into my heart. Forgive me of my sins. I receive you as my Savior. I said that prayer, and I was probably too young or too immature to understand the depth of the prayer that I was saying. But thank God He knew what I was saying. And then there I was, the summer when I was 15 or 16 years old. There I was in the middle of that summer. I asked Christ to become my Savior. And there, the journey began to walk with Jesus. 

Did you yearn for the peace that you felt in church?

Of course, I craved the peace, grace, and mercy. All I knew was I felt a love and an acceptance like I had never felt before. For me, the church truly became a sanctuary, and I don’t just mean that in a holy sense; I mean that in a protective sense, like a bird sanctuary or an animal sanctuary. I was there every time the church doors opened. I was there for senior adult meetings. I was even there for some of the MOPS meetings. The church doors opening meant I was there; it was a safe, accepting place where I began to learn about God, God’s love for us, and the Holy Spirit. I started studying God’s Word and grew in my faith.

Was it soon after that you realized you were being called to be a pastor?

Well, you know, any time God has called me to something, I’ve wrestled because of my insecurities, my fears, and because the shackles that were holding the lies of my past were trying to steal the hope of my future. And there I was again. I was just a young man, about 16 or 17 years old. By this time, I had become a fixture in the youth group. I attended all the pizza parties, roller skating rinks, sleep-ins, and late nights with the camping group. I was a part of this youth group because it was a part of me. And I remember the first time I raised my hands in prayer. I thought the whole world was looking at me, but there I stood before the altar, and I felt God quicken my heart and say, “Mark, you’re going to go to Bible school.” I wrestled with that because I have dyslexia and was a special education student. I usually tell people I didn’t learn how to read; I learned how to duck. My parents didn’t raise me; I made it through. So, my skills were learning how to duck and how to become that chameleon, how to fit in by being the funny kid or sports jock. I did what I did to survive. So, there I was, about 17 years old, with this call in my heart and feeling so insecure, saying, “God, you know, I don’t have the ability. I can’t read well. I can’t write well. God, how can you call me?” But God was faithful, and He called me to Bible school. Now, I wish I could tell you again I got up from that place and said, Amen. But there lay the journey, and God had a quickening in my heart, and I found myself in my early 20s. It was a few years later that I found myself at Bible college. 

When did you surrender entirely to Christ? In the book, you discuss the importance of complete surrender and forgiveness, as well as surrendering at the altar.  

Amen. And you know that process wasn’t a one-time process. That was a process that took many times of coming to the altar and allowing God to begin to crack that shell, if you will, to start speaking into my life, to begin to soften that heart of stone. And I remember that I had some people who loved me the most. And you know, sometimes people who love us and want to help don’t always give the best advice. It’s not because they’re evil or mean. It’s because they want to say something. And I remember somebody said, “Mark, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain.” ⁣ And I thought to myself, at 16 or 17 years old, what does that mean? So there I was in my prayer closet, and I said to the Lord, "Lord, what does it mean to move a mountain? What does it mean to have faith the size of a mustard seed?" Now, today, I know it’s measured in size. But at that time, God spoke to my heart, and He said, “Mark, will you move a pebble? Can you move pebbles?” And I said, “Lord, I can move pebbles all day long. I’ll be the best pebble-moving Christian you’ve ever had, God.” I’ll move pebbles to and fro, and slowly, the pebble becomes a stone, the stone becomes a rock, the rock becomes a hill, the hill becomes a boulder, and the boulder becomes a mound, growing bigger precept by precept, inch by inch. So again, it wasn’t the first time that I ran to the altar. There were many times that I kept going to the altar and laying myself on it, saying, God, help me because I was angry—I wanted my pound of flesh—I didn’t walk on water or float in clouds. I wanted my abuser to suffer. When I thought of hell, I wanted my abuser to go there. Again, I wasn’t this perfect saint with little wings. I had feelings. I had emotion. I had things taken from me. I was angry. I had questions—Why? How? If? What? All those things were rising up in me, but at the same time, God would bring me on this journey of forgiveness. And in that journey of forgiveness, I often say I was like David. Even though I had to walk through the valley of the shadow of death. Even though I had to walk out of this miracle, it still makes it a true miracle, just as much as one that happens suddenly, as much as one that unfolds over time. God helped me learn to forgive those who trespassed against me. God had to change me so that I could look at things differently. I didn’t start this journey saying, “I want to forgive the man who abused me.” I’m not that righteous or good. I started this journey by saying, “God, I want to know you. I wish to seek ye first and by knowing God, by seeking Him, He would bring me to forgiveness. I didn’t have the strength, the power, the knowledge, or probably even the heart at that time to forgive. I was angry. Someone stole something from me. There was an abuse given to me. I felt righteous in my anger. So God did. I didn’t say, “Okay, God, I’m such a good guy. Help me forgive those who abused me and raped me and stabbed me and beat me.” That’s not what I tried to do. This journey started with this kid going, “God, I want to know you. I want to know who you are. I want to know your Word. I want to know your Spirit. I want to be able to understand and grow.” And in that place, God would bring me. But again, it was seek ye first the kingdom of God. And that’s where it started. And even though I still wrestled with the flesh, and even though I still wrestled with the pain and the hurt, I was growing in God. As I grew closer to God, the things of this world began to seem strangely dim because God started to change my perspective. I saw Him first before I saw the hurt and the pain. God became louder. God became greater. His words became louder than hate. His love became sweeter than sorrow. However, it began by seeking God first. 

How do we know when we have truly forgiven and released the unforgiveness to Christ? 

Sure. And you know that’s a part of the journey, peeling the onion back one layer at a time. So, for me, it was just a straightforward step by going, “God, I’m giving it to you.” There are three things I want to share with you that I’ve learned about forgiveness. I always believed that forgiveness meant forgiving and forgetting, letting it go, and not making a mountain out of a molehill—let it go. The first thing I realized was that forgiveness is not the same as approval. Just because you say you forgive somebody doesn’t mean you’re approving of what they’ve done. You’re not accepting it; you’re not supporting it. You could still say, “What you’ve done was wrong, evil, and sinful against the law, and what happened is wrong.” I disapprove of it. I don’t accept it. I don’t want it. But yet, I can still forgive you for it. That’s the first thing I realized. The second thing I learned is that forgiveness isn’t a one-time event. God’s mercies are new every morning. And I realized that for me, forgiveness is that way. And the Lord’s Prayer says what? Help us forgive those who trespass against us. Before that, He says, Lord, give us this day our daily bread and help us forgive those who trespass against us. So, I believe that daily is for both things: the daily bread and daily forgiveness. And also the last thing I learned is a harder one. I learned I can have my boundaries. You know, those who have wounded me, I realized I could have boundaries to say, "You know what, I don’t have to have kumbaya moments." I could love them. I could give them to Christ. I could put them under the blood. I could say, Lord, they’re in your hands. I don’t have to put my head back in the lion’s mouth. You know, I can have healthy boundaries.

You shared in your book that unforgiveness not only affects us but also affects those around us because we often displace our anger and feelings onto them. Can you explain that?  

Sure. Let me unpack that with you for a few minutes. First of all, I’ll tell you one thing God had to do in my life was, again, as I said earlier, he had to change my perspective. And the way God did that is I’ll go back to when we were teenagers. When we were teenagers, we didn’t have a million channels to choose from. We didn’t have the phones in our hands. You know, I’m a Gen-Xer. So, you know, I drank water from a hose, and I came in when the streetlights were off. Mom didn’t know how to call you, but she always knew how to reach you. I remember being in high school in the early 80s; we only had PBS. And in our area, it was called Channel 2. And at Channel 2, our PBS station, Bob Ross, the painter. Everybody knows Bob Ross, and in half an hour, in my untrained eyes, he would paint a masterpiece. I’d be eating my bowl of cereal, coming home from school, and seeing the blank canvas become a masterpiece. At the end of almost every painting that Bob Ross did, he’d put a tree in front of the subject. So if he painted a lake or a cabin or a mountain or whatever he was painting, at almost the last two minutes of every show, he’d put a tree in front of the subject. And what he was doing, I found out years later by watching it, was changing our perspective. He was bringing the subject to life and giving it depth. He was saying the cabin is not as close as it looks now because there’s something in front of it. So it makes it look further away. And I thought about this all the time, like this old song that got caught in your head. I thought, "Lord, why am I thinking about this Bob Ross painting?" And one day, the Lord said to me, “Mark, if you put my cross in front of your hurts, if you put my cross of Calvary, my love, it’s going to put some depth. Sometimes, when we have pain and go through unforgiveness and sorrow, it’s so close that it pours out. It pours out to people, you know; it pours out to the people that we love. We think we have it hidden, but we usually have it buried under just that soft veneer, and as soon as it’s touched or we believe it’s going to get touched, we lash out, and usually, we lash out at the people who love us, but God is saying to put Him in front of that pain. Put me in front of that hurt. Put me in front of that sorrow. I’m so thankful that God has helped me change my perspective. I see Christ first. Oh, I don’t deny what I went through. I don’t deny that it’s a part of my story, a part of my narrative. It’s a part of my testimony, but it doesn’t define who I am. The worst part of my life does not have to define my life. God loves you, and he wants to set you free. He wants to give you freedom. 

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Samuel Johnson

Counselor, Coach, and Consultant 4C LTD

These are Samuel's favorite scriptures...

Samuel, you wanted to share the meaning of your name. 

Yeah, I was sharing this anecdote with Dawn-Marie earlier that I didn’t grow up a Samuel. I was a Sam in my childhood, and I grew up in a small town in the mid-1970s; Sam was not a popular name back then. There were more Samanthas than Samuels. I was speaking with a colleague a few years ago, and I asked him if he preferred Josh or Joshua. And he was describing how he would much rather be called Joshua than be a joke, as in “Josh” or “joshing around,” and it got me thinking about my name, which is incredibly powerful. It’s such a powerful name, and I’m glad my parents chose it for me instead of my brother’s. My brother’s name is Darin, and my parents named him after Bobby Darin, the singer of Splish Splash; I was taking a bath. So I got the biblical name, and he got the musical name. However, this connection to the name is that God hears Samuel, and I didn’t just want to be heard. Throughout my life, I struggled, believing that no one was listening to me. This struggle, rooted in my childhood experiences, has significantly shaped my identity and my journey of faith. So, this was a transformation for me, transitioning to the name Samuel. This was confusing for some of my friends, and even my wife would emphasize my name by saying ‘SamUEL,’ but I much prefer that God hear me and I am heard by Him. The name Samuel resonates with me in several ways, as he was the last of the judges before the time of the kings, and he anointed kings. What Samuel did was anoint not just one king but two. And he anointed the greatest king of the kingdom of Israel, King David. The few times that I’ve heard God’s voice, one time He said, “Get up. You are a king and a kingmaker.” God speaks to us; our identity is in Him, and it says in Revelation 2:17 that He will give us a new name.

When you were in fourth or fifth grade, you went through a hard season because of your parents’ struggling marriage. How did this season shape you and lead your path today? 

Yeah, there was a time when my parents were struggling in their marriage, and because I became a Christian as a child, I asked them if they would continue taking me to church because they weren’t going. I just wanted to be there, and they took me, and I went by myself. At the time, my older brother was not as connected to faith. There was this gentleman that I knew who lived in my small town, a community of around 4,000 people. Everybody knew everybody, so I knew this man, but he was my parents’ age, and when you’re in fourth and fifth grade, you’re intimidated by them. One day, he asked me to sit down and talk to him. He told me that I was so brave, and I had no idea what he meant by that. It was normal for me to be there, and it reminds me of Samuel in the Bible because he was raised in God’s house, and I wanted to be in His house, too. Today, my practice is even in the church that I attend. I have always felt very comfortable in God’s house. So it’s like my living room. 

You shared with me that, at one point, you wanted to be a technical writer. However, it was during your time as a resident advisor in college that something began to happen, which became a clear indication of your calling and gift. 

Yeah. So, first, for those who don’t know what a technical writer is, it’s like getting those manuals, and now, sadly, most of them you can’t understand because they’re written in a language other than English. A technical writer writes for scientists. I have a very scientific mind. My family gets tired of me talking about it because I won the biology, chemistry, and physics awards, and I’m this touchy-feely dude in therapy, too, so I can bridge these two worlds pretty well. I have an undergraduate degree in English and a master’s degree in counseling. I had planned to work in technical writing, but I became a resident assistant at the college I attended instead. My roommate was also a resident assistant, so we split up the hall and would have meetings like all the other RAs. At the meetings, we would gather and go around, and many of the guys would talk about winning their basketball games and their intramural competitions. Another would say that it was a great meeting because they had to work on different programs. The other RA would ask me, “Okay, Sam, so how are things with you?” And I’d say, “Well, this week, this one guy attempted suicide. I have one guy who’s strung out on pot, and he hasn’t gone to a class in four weeks. Another guy went to walk on the railroad tracks downtown, considering leaving school and just taking a train, you know, and then there was another gentleman who has a deep, affectionate place in my heart because he has a personality disorder and would pick up whatever personality or identity that suited him in the needs of the situation he was in. What became very clear to me was that God was leading me toward a profession in therapy where I could help people. I had those pieces in my background. In high school, I was part of a group called Peer Helpers. I was always doing things that helped my friends. In college, I was an English major, and I thought to myself, “Oh my gosh, what am I going to do?” I’ve wasted four years?" No offense to English majors out there, but I had packed my schedule, so my senior year, I was going to blow it off entirely. I had available time in my calendar. It was God’s gift because I started calling schools and said, “What do I need to do if I want to get in?” And they said, “Take this, this, this, this, and this class.” And all of them fit into my schedule. It was meant to be. So, I took all these introductory psychology classes as a senior with freshmen. Lastly, my roommate, remember, was an RA as well, and one of the things that solidified my decision about my giftedness and calling was when he said, “Sam, when the guys are looking to have fun, they’ll come and find me, but when they need help, they will wait for you."

You shared that you had trauma. What kind of trauma did you have and go through? 

Yes. Parts of my story I choose respectfully not to share because it also affects some other people, but certainly, I can add the experiences that my parents went through. They did remain married, but there was a lot of ugliness in their marriage. I remember looking into the mirror in fourth grade and saying, “I’m done with them. I’m done with them.” I swore them off and drew a line. Thankfully, that’s not where I stand with them today because I’ve had healing. I can share this bit, too. I also attended a Christian camp. As I mentioned earlier, the only place I wanted to be was in the house of God. If it weren’t for Craig, with whom we are Facebook friends to this day and stay connected, I shared with him and his sons that if it weren’t for their dad, I would not be here—I would have taken my life, as parts of my trauma left me suicidal. Craig, my camp counselor, was very influential and is now a pastor and missionary. We’ll never know the seeds we’re planting in people’s lives this side of heaven.

You specialize in anxiety and OCD, couples work, Internal Family Systems, EMDR, brainspotting, and EFT. Could you explain all of these methods? 

Sure. Part of the reason I specialize in many of those areas, not all of them, but many of them, is that it takes one to know one, right? I have anxiety, and a doctor would probably diagnose me with OCD. My wife certainly would think so, which is obsessive-compulsive disorder. Anxiety looks like being distressed or worried more than you ought to, and some people manage it just fine. Truth be told, a little anxiety is good for you because it helps you perform to the best of your abilities, but it can also incapacitate you if not managed. What I’d like to be clear about is because a lot of people will say, “Well, I don’t have obsessive-compulsive disorder because I don’t check the knobs of the stove when I leave the house, or you should see my desk.” That has nothing to do with what OCD is. You can have different behaviors, and if you have a messy desk or if you have some area in your life that you can’t control, it could be a sign that you do have OCD because what people do is say, “Well, I can’t manage that so I’m not even going to try.” So, my type of OCD is much more about the inability to stop thinking—You can’t shut it off. The obsessions are the thoughts. You can have compulsions of counting and checking, and that is where mine shows up.

For example, I will lie in bed and count, check, and go through mental lists over and over, prepping for the next day. There are a lot of ways you can have obsessive-compulsive disorder. You also asked about some of the ways that I provide treatment. One approach is called the Internal Family Systems. So, if you’ve seen the Disney movie Inside Out, the movie represents various parts of a girl’s brain as animated characters—there’s an angry part, a disgusted part, a happy part, and a sad part of the brain. What we do, in a sense, is anthropomorphize them or give them life. We apply Internal Family Systems to our system, meaning ourselves. In essence, we would engage in therapy with ourselves from a Christian perspective, guided by the Holy Spirit, a process designed to help individuals lead themselves more effectively. There’s also a way to do healing work with it as well that doesn’t look the same but takes you to the same result as EMDR, which is a trauma healing approach, and brainspotting is an offshoot of EMDR. Researchers discovered that EMDR involves eye movement—that’s what EMDR is—so the therapist moves their fingers back and forth. Then, the client watches them, and there’s a lot more that goes on. However, while that’s happening, it allows the brain to heal from what it was previously trying to keep away from or block out. Brainspotting is an offshoot of that. Whereas a gentleman named David Gran discovered that while he was moving his fingers, sometimes people’s eyes would wobble or stick, so instead of moving his hands back and forth, he found the spot where the distress “lives,” and you held it there, and the distress heals, so I use this approach as well. EFT is a couples therapy approach called emotionally focused therapy, and men tend to hate that name because they think they’re going to be required to cry. It’s not true. There are many emotions involved, but it’s one of the most researched and well-documented approaches to couples’ therapy. Couples therapy approaches tend not to have as much research behind them as individual approaches, so I wanted to learn a skill because when I was doing all of this trauma work with people and helping them heal, they would say, “Can you please tell my partner what you’re telling me and explain to them what’s going on?” I also do neurofeedback, which involves placing electrodes on your head. My wife, daughter, and I do it. It’s not therapy, but what it does is shift your brain from a state of distress or fight, flight, or freeze mode to a state of rest, moving it to rest, digest, and relax mode. 

What’s the difference between surviving and truly living? How do you help people reach a point of healing, freeing them from their struggles? 

I love these questions, and they’re so huge, but let’s see if I can encapsulate them. But first of all, the difference between surviving and thriving. And by the way, surviving is necessary. Surviving is a good thing. Surviving is a skill that humans have developed and need to possess. Parts of our brain help us survive. Survival almost always revolves around protection and keeping you safe. Protection is beneficial, but it often hinders healing because protective mechanisms resist addressing the issue. Until you’re ready to heal, protection is a good thing. For a time, surviving is necessary, and it’s perfect. I’m always telling my clients that they need to do what they’re doing. You needed your OCD. You needed your depression. You needed your anxiety to keep you alive. You needed your ADHD, etc. It’s very unshaming, right? Because people come in like they believe they’re bad or wrong for having this mental health concern. And my first line is, “No, it kept you alive.” Literally, in many instances, I’ve experienced my own suicidal experiences. In many cases, this depression, anxiety, etc., kept the person alive until they were ready and able to heal. And healing is literally that. So, let’s use an example. Let’s say you have a broken bone. And what you could do is you could wrap it up in gauze, and you could splint it, take some aspirin, and limp along. You could be okay, and your arm would probably heal, but it would probably heal deformed. However, if you visit a doctor, they can put it in a cast and use it, allowing you to return to your normal state, where it would be as good as new, if not stronger. When bones break, they heal—they’re stronger at the break. By the way, I believe that the same thing happens in these transformative healing approaches that I use. EMDR, brainspotting, and IFS were all accidental discoveries about trauma. All three experts, David Gran, Francine Shapiro, and Richard Schwarz, would say, “Well, I just found this serendipitously,” and it happened to work. I believe all of these serendipity experiences are God’s work. And they brought transformation to people. Other forms of therapy are excellent, necessary, and valuable because you might be in that place where you need to survive, and you’re not ready for healing yet. So, I don’t knock any other form of therapy. EMDR, as well as IFS and brainspotting, are approaches that help a person feel safe enough to allow that wall to come down so it doesn’t feel scary or threatening. It’s an approach that enables the wall to come down just enough, and then it can also go back up. 

How has your faith continued to influence your life and work today? 

I’ll throw in an anecdote about running here. For a season, I was a runner in high school. I’m not an athlete, and I don’t connect with those things. I’m a nerdy scientist type, but I’m currently in training and have just completed a 25K trail run, which is approximately 15.5 miles. Trail running differs from pavement running, and now I’m preparing for a Spartan Ultra, which will be 32 miles and feature 60 obstacles. The metaphor here is that we’re always in training, and when we permit ourselves to do hard things, God honors it and blesses it. God didn’t say things are going to be easy. No. God didn’t say your life is going to be a picnic. No. What God told me is that I experienced some complicated things in my life, and He allowed those things to be used for good. I received my healing. I got healing through EMDR, and after that happened, I said, “I have to bring this to other people.”My life verse is Genesis 50:20. “But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.” I firmly believe that God wants me to do this work, and He allowed what happened to me. I don’t like saying, “He did it. That’s unfair and unreasonable. He certainly allowed it, and good came out of it. 

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Joe Woodley

Author, Success Coach, Leadership & Team Development Speaker

These are Joe's favorite scriptures...

Joe, you grew up in a Christian home, but there was a time in your life when you stepped away from your faith only to return to the Lord. Could you share about that time and what led you back to Christ?

Absolutely. First, I want to say that I’m very thankful for my childhood and for my mother for taking us to church. Some people say, “Well, they don’t want to go; I won’t make them.” Attending church certainly planted a seed in me, which was crucial to my eventual return. But when I was small, I think I was angry and confused. My father left when I was young, and it was at this point that life became tough, and I was searching for my identity. My grandfather, who stepped in like a surrogate father, passed away when I was eleven. He lived several streets away and was a pastor—we come from a family of pastors, and I think it had a greater impact on me than I realized. I was not the most outgoing individual to begin with. Still, I became much more of an introvert at that moment, and I questioned life, my purpose for being here, and pretty much everything, because I felt so alone and angry. Then, I had an uncle who returned to New York, and he stepped in, in a way, and then soon after my senior year of high school, he too passed away. So, there was so much hurt, angst, and disappointment in my life, and I didn’t have straightforward answers for why these different things were happening. Again, I had a wonderful family, and my mother prayed for us and with us daily—we were truly a Christ-centered home, but I had a lot of questions. Additionally, we were part of a smaller church, and as unfortunate as this may sound, I think larger churches in the community also looked down upon us. However, we had a dynamic choir and worship team, and the Spirit of God moved. But I saw the hurt that my grandmother went through because when you’re a pastoral family, you see the tears that other people don’t see or hear about. She didn’t talk about things that much. Still, you could see it on her, and so, in that anger and in that resentment for everything that was going on, and from the hurt of my father leaving. These men who had become father figures, and the hurt and disappointment I saw in how the people of God were treating one another, led me to leave and start withdrawing. I didn’t want anything to do with the church, to be quite honest. I was like, if church people treat each other this way, why would I want to be a part of that? Not having the maturity at that stage in my life to process all of those things, I went out into the world and was like a wild horse, doing just about anything and everything that I was big enough and bad enough to do, and my life headed downhill quickly. I eventually moved to Ohio when I was 23, after being born and raised in New York, to be with a woman with whom I had a long-distance relationship, and things continued to deteriorate in my life. Then, I began a relationship that resulted in my son’s conception. I didn’t want my son to go down the road that I was going down—I wanted to be the best father I could be because that was something that I didn’t have growing up, and I knew that the only one who could help me to do these things was God. I knew that I didn’t want to end up like so many people that I knew who had children all over the place without their fathers. So, the Lord brought me back into the church. I started attending a church that was perfect for me at the time because it was a heavily disciplinarian ministry, and that’s what I needed, as I was out in the world. Accountability, challenge, and forward momentum were what I needed to avoid wandering, and someone guided me. My mentors challenged me to grow and develop, and through that, the Lord began to work in my life. And I’m grateful because God saved my life, not just my soul. He saved my life through that ministry so I wouldn’t wind up as one of these men who are out there with children all over the place and have no idea who they are. Still, more importantly, so I would grow in the truth of who God is, the Word of God, and His character, integrity, purpose, and promises for my life. This needed to happen, so God placed me exactly where I needed to be and where I wanted to be. In contrast, I think many believers would be resistant to that type of discipline because they may feel that they can handle things on their own, and they told me that I couldn’t handle things on my own and they would be in my business, and that helped me to grow in the Word of God and the things of God. The Lord knows what I needed, and He knows what everyone needs. I would challenge you to submit to someone who is an authority. I challenge you to submit to an authority figure, allowing them to guide you so that God’s gifts can mature and be fully manifested in your life.

You minister now, correct?  Yes, I do.

When we spoke on the phone, you said that we are vessels to be used by God. How do you get your sermons? 

Well, number one, I’m always going before the Lord and praying, which is the first and foremost thing you’ve got to do. The Holy Spirit will speak to you. He speaks to us in different ways, but when He speaks to me, He’ll then show me things about the things I see happening around me. I see things that are happening in the spirit—everything is spiritual and has a spiritual core. Then, He’ll lead me into the scriptures. And not just like one scripture because we need to be careful about that—using one scripture can be taken entirely out of context, so He’ll show me scriptures, a chapter, a passage in the Bible and how it correlates with what’s going on and what His will is in correlation to that scripture and whether it lines up or is misaligned with the Word of God. And then, through that process, He’ll give me the message to share, and I fully yield to the Lord. Take this message however you want to take it. Yes, I research to understand the historical and cultural contexts of the scripture and its original meaning. Still, I also seek what the Holy Spirit wants to accomplish—what message He wants to communicate to people—through these scriptures. Mind you, the first ministry is happening to me. He’ll speak to me and get my heart right. So when He begins to minister to me, and I begin to research and study the scriptures, and He shows me how they correlate, then I say, “Lord, you have to get my heart right. I’ll then ask myself, “How is my heart in correlation to scripture?” So if it’s a word of correction, then, Lord, “You need to correct my heart.” If it is a word of inspiration, then, Lord, “Inspire my heart. If it’s a word that challenges people to come up in Christ, Lord, "Challenge me first." The Word says we must be the first partakers of the Word, so I am the first partaker. And through that process, God gives me a message for the sermons. I must say that over the years, as this has happened and I have yielded more to the Lord, allowing Him to work through this process, I believe that God is glorified. So when I get up and speak, I don’t want people looking and saying, “Man, Joe is just a fantastic speaker—Joe is this, Joe is that.” I want them to say, “Joe is a servant of the Lord, and he speaks truth according to the Word of God—not his truth, but the Word of God.” That’s imperative to me. So, God guides me through that process, sometimes quickly and sometimes more slowly, as He refines me so that I communicate His Word, not my own thoughts or ideas. Sometimes, I hear this from some preachers after they put a message together: they say, “I’m going to knock this out of the park,” and that’s not the point of a message—it’s for God to be glorified through ministering to the hearts and minds of people who are in your presence. So, if you’re looking to craft a message that knocks it out of the park, you’re in the wrong business because that’s not what it’s about. This is not about you being glorified—it’s not about you becoming famous or having your name on a billboard. It has nothing to do with you! We are vessels to be used by God for His glory, and that’s it. I’ve said this to many people: on my tombstone, what I want written is ‘Serving the Lord.’ All of this that God has allowed me to accomplish and be a part of comes down to being a servant of the Lord. And that’s what ministering is about; it has nothing to do with us. We’re vessels to be used by God. Yes, God uses people, but let’s not get twisted because the minute we begin to think it’s all about us, we’re going to fall.

Joe, you are also a success coach and a life coach. How do you weave your faith into that? 

Well, the story was interesting because, as I previously stated, I was one of those very shy children who didn’t want to be in front of anybody. My family can attest to that. There are videos somewhere of me in the choir, slowly drifting into the background. After my son was born, I became involved in a church, and they encouraged me to grow. I believe my son was in the first grade at the time, and the school was implementing a program called character education, which involved bringing in guest speakers or entertainment to talk to the kids, so he said to me, “Dad, you should come to my school and do the character education.” I responded, “What am I going to talk about?” And he replied, “Well, since you’re preaching to me at home all the time, you should come to school and talk to the kids.” So, I took him up on it and developed a character called The Hero, which stands for Healthy Emotions, Relationship, and Outlook. My son helped me create a costume and picked out the colors. We then did a test run at my church, and they loved it. Then, we took it to a school, and it was a hit. Through that, I began to weave biblical principles into the story of this character and present it to the students. There was even a hero pledge that they would recite at the end, emphasizing their commitment to serving their community and being selfless, so all of those principles were incorporated. And then, I was at an event at one of the largest malls in Columbus, Ohio, when a lady called me over and said, “Come here, young man.” Mind you, I was in my Spandex and cape, thinking, “Oh, boy, what does she want?” She proceeded to say, “I need to talk to you. I can see you doing that, in a suit and tie.” And I’m thinking, what? I’m talking to these kids. Anyway, some serious life events ended up happening, and I had to hang up the costume and cape for a bit. Then, I asked the Lord, “What do you want me to do now?” He began to show me that adults are basically like big kids and many times, they are individuals who never resolved a lot of their childhood issues and trauma, and they carry these things into adulthood. So, the Lord showed me how to apply the same biblical principles and values, repackage them, and present them to different organizations, which led me to speak at Fortune 500 companies. Mind you, the Lord helped me break it all down and had me do the Hero project so I could act like someone else, thus getting me accustomed to being in front of people. It’s not that I don’t get nervous; I rely on the Lord when it happens. So, I applied these principles to adults, corporations, businesses, and churches. People loved what was being shared and would come to me to ask, “How do you come up with this? Where are you getting this stuff from?” And I would say, “The Word of God.” Let me give you an example of when I got my first contract with a Fortune 500 company. The supervisors invited me to speak, and over two to three weeks, I developed the proposal. I had my folders, and everything was color-coded, and I went to sit down and heard God say to me, “Put it away.” I said, “What?” And He said it again, “Put it away.” So, I take the folders I spent two or three weeks on and put them away. I will tell you, don’t do this unless God tells you to do it. I said, “Okay, God—I have nothing because all my stuff is in that folder.” The supervisors came over, brought me some papers, put them in front of me, and sat down. And they say, “So what do you think?” And it was like the Lord put a puzzle in front of my face. It looked like a literal puzzle, and I could see everything. I could see where everything fit. And as I sat down, I looked, and I said, “Oh, that’s easy. All you have to do is this, this, this, and this.” The corporate heads are looking at each other and say, “How did you do that?” And I said, “Well, what do you mean? They responded, “No one has ever come in and done that before.” How did you do that?” I could see instantaneously precisely what needed to happen and what this company needed. And so they loved it. And brought me in and said, “We’re going to start you on a 6-month trial.” From that six-month trial, they gave me a full year. So the Lord was at work in that environment, and again, this was all Him. It wasn’t that because I’m so brilliant—that I’m so smart—that I’m so educated. This is the Lord, and the principles I taught within that group were all biblically based and Christ-inspired, so I was able to present them in that way. So, what does this all look like now? I’m able to help organizations do the sort of job now as a success coach, and working at the college is not so distant from what I was doing before and continue to do. People ask me, “How are you able to be as successful as you are with the students?” And the answer is that I’m not so much focused on their academics. The academic component is a symptom of what’s happening underneath, so we sit down and talk. Yes, I need to discuss the academics because they need to get their grades in order. Still, the primary focus of the talk is on who they are as an individual and their purpose in life, as well as what makes them who they are in their future. They open up and inevitably, everyone who buys into the system, everyone who begins to trust and follow through—every last one of them—sees an improvement in their grades, a dramatic turnaround. Still, it’s not being focused on the academic component because I think we put too much emphasis on the performance and not enough on the person. However, if I focus on the person God made, the performance will follow. Not because they feel like they have to do it, but because they have a desire to do it because God is working through them.

Based on your own experiences, what advice would you offer to those seeking to deepen their faith or embark on a path of personal development?

Based on my experience as a success coach, there are commonalities of success in our lives, whether they are spiritual or natural. The first thing to be aware of is that we must be mindful of them and how we spend our time. We need to be aware of how we spend our time. Many of us are mismanaging our time within the same 24 hours that we all have. It exists for every one of us. So I have to decide what I’m going to do within those 24 hours. Now, I understand that we have long days, and many of us face challenges throughout our days. But perhaps when I get home, instead of immediately turning on the TV or getting distracted by social media, I should invest some time in studying the Word of God and in worship and prayer. Many may say that they don’t have enough time to pray. Let me calculate this for you and your listeners. The average person in the United States of America—let’s say they spend 5 hours a day watching TV or on the Internet. We’re going to make it as little as possible, even though we know people do more. So let’s say 5 hours a day. That means we spend 35 hours a week on either television or social media. Okay, well, there’s your time right there that you could be investing in reading scripture. So, when people say they don’t have the time, we need to be aware of how we spend our time. The second thing I encourage for those of us who want to grow spiritually is that we need to learn to be humble before the Lord. And as we discussed earlier in this conversation, submit to someone who is in authority and can speak into our lives. I get it—there is church hurt—I get it; there is pain, but through the leading of the Holy Spirit, ask the Lord to lead you to someone who can disciple, mentor, or shepherd you so that you can grow in Christ, not just for your benefit, but for the benefit of the souls that God will lay before you. There are people that you’re going to minister to on your job, dare I say, in your own homes, at the grocery store—wherever—so we need people in our lives to do that. Be mindful of the time that you have. If you need to schedule it and write it out, do so. For example, from 7:00 to 8:00, this is my time for reading, studying the Word, and worship. You need to do this consistently until it becomes a part of your identity and feels automatic. And then what will happen is that the Bible says those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be satisfied. So as I’m in the Word of God, as I’m worshipping, as I’m praying, as I’m doing those things, He’s going to give you a hunger and a thirst so that you won’t even feel right, not out of guilt. Still, you won’t feel right because it will become an integral part of who you are: prayer, worship, and studying the Word of God are just as essential as breathing air. You can’t go a day without it. That would be my encouragement to those who are listening and watching today.

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Angelo Liloc

Founder of Operation Redwood--Restore Manhood/Rescue Kids/Rebuild Families

These are Angelo's favorite scriptures...

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Angelo, can you take us back to when everything in your life began to unravel? What were you going through physically, emotionally, and spiritually?

Yeah. The crazy part is I’ve told this story plenty of times before, and every time I share it, a part of me feels it again. I used to think that was bad, but I realized it’s just a reminder of where God has taken me and taken me through. I used to be a police officer in California, so my background is in law enforcement. I come from a family of warriors—my grandpa and uncles have all served in some form of military, and even my dad was in the US Army, and my little brother was in the Navy. So, growing up, I was always around warriors, sharing stories of all the cool stuff they did. I couldn’t wait until I, too, could share and partake in those stories. When I got out of high school, I got injured, and that took me out of going to the Army, so I went into law enforcement, and it’s still something in the warrior community. So I was in law enforcement at the peak of my career and experienced a lot of darkness and violence day-to-day to the point I turned away from my faith because I was like, “God, how are you letting these crimes and violence happen to these good people?” As a police officer, you go from call to call, never knowing what you’ll encounter—sometimes it’s nothing, and other times it’s crazy, so you don’t see what you’ll step into next. You become desensitized to it because your hormones and adrenaline levels are always up and down. Each day, you arrive unsure if it will be your last, so you master suppressing the trauma you witness to remain fully present for the next call demanding your service or protection. My career took a dramatic turn when I received an invitation to try out for the Police Department SWAT team. This is what I lived for and wanted to do. At this point in my life, I have seen and experienced enough darkness that I have stopped going to church. Growing up, my family and I would attend church every Sunday, but after seeing everything, I got turned off, and everything I saw and experienced didn’t make sense. Preparation eliminates nervousness, as you’ve done everything possible to succeed. Coming up to the day of the SWAT test, I was in the best shape of my life. With all my training and trial runs, I was confident I would make the team. The morning of the SWAT test, I’m prepared and ready to tear it up and get on the team. I had breakfast and was leaving on time, but as I picked up my bags by the door and reached for the doorknob to open it, something didn’t feel right in my heart. I had this weird anxiety, so I shut the door, put my bags down, and did something I hadn’t done in years—I knelt to say a quick “insurance prayer,” and the last part of my prayer to God was, “Let your will be done.” When I got to the police department, I warmed up, and then it was my turn. I started to go through all the obstacles and was having a perfect time, and then I got to the part I had done hundreds of times in the last six months of training: jumping over a wall. I slipped on the grass and hit my knee into the wall, which dislocated my knee and messed up my hips and back. I remember screaming out in pain. All the police chiefs and the staff were there, and I was cursing every word that I could think of. The ambulance took me to the hospital, and I lay in my hospital bed, the pain medicine wearing off. I clicked the button for the nurses to help, and my body was shaking from the pain I was in. So, I called for help, but nobody was coming—I felt invisible. At this moment, I remember thinking, “What is going on? Why can’t I get some medicine?” I looked down in distress and then looked up into the light on the ceiling and started cursing God, “Why did you do this to me? Do you know what I had to sacrifice to get my career? I left my fiancé in Chicago and missed birthdays and other special celebrations. I missed everything, and you take it away like this??!!" Of all the scenarios I envisioned happening in my life and purpose, this was not one of them. And just like a parent reprimands their children, I heard God remind me, “Do you remember that prayer you said? What was the last part?" I was initially surprised, but then I remembered the last part of my morning prayer before the SWAT test: “Whatever happens, Lord, let your will be done.” 

All the best doctors in California treated me during my recovery in an attempt to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. My healing wasn’t progressing as quickly as everyone had hoped—I had already injured my other knee. I was eager to return to the streets in uniform in six months. Four months after my accident, my good friend and mentor, Sergeant Scott, died in a shooting on the streets. Another one of my good friends called me, letting me know what happened. After this, my physical therapy and healing stopped progressing. I believe that my healing plateaued because I was hurting so much mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually—hurting in every way. Being in my mid-20s, I didn’t know how to cope. I grew up in a family where my dad told us to shake it off. Because what I was going through was an internal emotional and spiritual pain, it was tough. I much prefer to feel physical pain. From that point, my physical therapy progress plateaued and then declined, surprising my doctors. I believe that how most men deal with things is to drink or play video games, and that’s what I did, too. It was my coping mechanism to feel short-term goodness because I was hurting so much. A couple of months later, I got a call from a police department representative, and then they sent my buddy, Rick, to come and get my gear. This is the protocol they go through when they retire an officer. In my mind, I was thinking, “You’re not giving me up just yet, are you? After everything I’ve done for this city!” I remember my buddy coming to take my gun, badge, and radio, putting everything in a box, and then putting it in his trunk—I know it not only hurt me, but it hurt him, too. At that point, I felt my identity as a warrior was slipping away and being put in a box. This happened the same year, and I didn’t understand much about what was happening. 

I think many people forget that they may get some sign or message from God, and think everything will be a piece of cake. No, there will be wilderness parts of our lives because we don’t get to where we are overnight, and sometimes we’re asking God to add things to our lives—to give us things—but really, we need to have things taken away. We must remember that subtraction is equally as powerful and important as addition. We’re always praying for more: a better house, a better this, a better that,  gives me more. But how are we handling and stewarding the things that we already have? We don’t need to keep adding more. Sometimes, we need things taken away, and I think that’s what God was doing with me—He was taking things away. He let me experience my years in law enforcement and the tactical life, and He was teaching me to trust Him, that He would use everything I have done and learned. 

Can you share the Sunday morning you visited a high school parking lot? After this, things began to change. 

This was when the stripping away of everything started happening, and I lost my identity as a warrior. Now, I’m confused. What am I supposed to do? I have no degree. I’ve got two messed-up knees, a messed-up hip, and a messed-up back—now, what am I supposed to do? I can’t do the things I want to do. I can’t go to the military. What now? I didn’t want a desk job. I was in such a dark place. And like I said. What do many guys do when they are struggling? We drink and play video games. So, I started drinking, eating a lot, and gaining weight. My wife would come home after work and ask if I was okay. It came to a point where I almost took my life. My wife was at work, and the devil was whispering in my mind that I was nothing, I had no degree, and I was worthless, and how was I going to provide for my wife? So, when she went to work that day, I believed all the lies I could see around me were problems. No one knew I was hurting because I’m a goofy, funny dude who was good at masking things and diverting attention away from me by making people laugh. I fought the lies I was believing and hearing in my head and knew that I couldn’t do it, so I walked out of my apartment using my crutches, got in the car, and just drove. I didn’t know where I was going because I didn’t have a destination—I just kept moving, and then I ended up in this high school parking lot, and with the beautiful California weather, I had all the windows down. In the distance, I could hear music. I recognized this music because I grew up in church. I said, “That sounds like church music, but it’s a high school?” I got out of the car and saw a crowd walking, so I followed them into the gymnasium, a church that rented out the high school for Sunday services. I sat down in the back, and it felt weird but calm and comforting at the same time. The pastor’s name was Ryan, and he preached out of the book of Habakkuk and said to everyone, “Most of you have never heard of this book, and many preachers don’t speak from this book. It’s such a small book in the Bible. A lot of you probably have never even heard of it. When he goes on preaching, he talks about how Habakkuk continued to question God and why He was allowing all these things to happen. Why are you allowing all this violence to happen around me? And I felt he was speaking directly to me. Yeah. Then, Pastor Ryan shared a personal story. One summer, he took a sabbatical, a brief vacation to rest. On his sabbatical, he could spend every day with his daughter, who may have been around 3 or 4 years old. When the sabbatical was over and it was time for him to return to work, his daughter asked him, “Where are you going?” And he told her, “We’re not going to hang out today; I’m sorry, honey. I’ve got to get back to church.” She asked, Why? And he told her, “Well, I’m the pastor, and my sabbatical is over.” She asked, Why? Because, “It’s my responsibility. It’s how I get paid and how we pay the bills.” She kept asking why, and he tried to explain it to her. Then, at one point, his daughter ran away, returned with her piggy bank, gave it to him, and said, “Here you go, Daddy. Now, you don’t have to go back to work anymore.”

He shared that story to reference Habakkuk—sometimes we ask God, “Why this? Why that? Why, why, why?” Why did this happen to me? Why did you allow this? But even if God gave us the answer, we still wouldn’t be able to handle it or fully understand what He’s trying to do in our lives. So it’s like, “Why this, God, why that?” He’s like, no, you’re not going to get it. No, no, no, tell me. Just tell me. No, no, no, you’re not going to get it. Just tell me. I swear I’ll get it. And then He tells us, and we’re like, huh, and it makes no sense. And that’s exactly the feeling I got. I may not understand the darkness that I’m in—I may not understand the violence that’s around me—I may not understand the depression that is going on in my life right now. And I can continue to ask Him why, but even if He gave me the answer, would I be able to receive His answer and understand?

I remember breaking down crying when the praise and worship music started. I knew God had placed me at the perfect time and place with the ideal message to speak into my life. It was perfect. As I was crying with my eyes closed, I felt a cool, watery substance on the top of my head, behind my neck, and on my back, slowly dripping down to my feet. Initially, I thought someone behind me took a bottle of water and poured it on my head, and I almost switched into fight mode, but then I noticed that it didn’t feel like water because it was moving slowly and was cool. At that moment, God told me He loves me and He didn’t forget about me, and it was then that God got my attention.  

I shared earlier that my family was a big warrior type. So, I learned my identity as a warrior from my dad, which carried me on to the first half of my career. Still, I knew faith through my mom, and that’s what carried me on for life because when the world took my badge and gun—when the world took my gun, when the world gave me the identity of a warrior and then took it away—the only thing left was my identity as a son and child of God; that was the only thing. This reminds me of one of my favorite scriptures. It’s James 1:2-4 where it says, “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.” So, instead of looking at the trials we go through as God hating us, not loving us, or forgetting about us, sometimes He uses opportunities to mold us. Remember when I was talking about adding versus taking away? Sometimes, this is Him taking away, and it’s that identity that people miss. When the world took my identity as a warrior, my identity in Christ carried me through.

So when we live in and by the world, have our confidence come from the world, have our identities be from the world, and have our faith be in the world, when that’s gone, what’s left? I speak confidently because I know what it did to me. When the world took everything away, and I didn’t have anything else, my faith was the last thing I turned to. And yet, you know what? That’s probably the first thing I should have been leaning into this whole time—faith and faith in God and my identity in Him.

What inspired you to start Operation Redwood, and what does the name mean?

I must shout out to my buddy Samuel because he asked me if I was born in Redwood City, California, and if I knew anything about redwood trees. Samuel said the redwood trees are massive, but their roots are shallow and intertwine, so you can’t pull one tree out without pulling all the others out. They can create a stable base because their roots are intertwined like a church community. Then he shared that when one of their seeds falls to the ground, it won’t open up unless there’s some stress put on it, such as fire or a flood—stress needs to be applied to that seed so it can open up and become another redwood tree. That’s like the James 1:2-4 verse. There’s a process in this. I thought Redwood’s idea and name were cool, but didn’t know what to do with it next—it was just a cool name. 

Then, I had this dream that my home office was burning. The only things left standing that were not burnt or touched by the fire were my desk and computer; when I talked to people that I trusted about it who are deeply rooted in faith and biblically based, all concluded, including myself, that God was asking me to burn all of this down and focus on Him. 

At the time, I had equity in a couple of different companies. And to be completely honest, I was still unhappy. When I left the police department and went into entrepreneurship and business, I thought it would make me happy, but again, it was just trying to fill in the void that the police department had stripped away. The difference now was that I had a daughter. And if you guys have kids, you know, they’re going to see the things that you’re doing, and they’re also going to see the things that you don’t want them to see or do. So, in my mind, I was depressed, and I couldn’t have her replicate that. I couldn’t have her see that this was how I lived. And then, suddenly, maybe she might blame herself. Why Dad’s unhappy, why he’s never satisfied, why he’s always short-tempered, why he’s never giving us grace—that’s not the type of man, husband, or dad that I want to be. It was a six-month battle of trying to figure out if God wanted me to release equity, and, in a sense, I had debt I had to pay off, so I surrendered. 

And then God brought that whole Redwood thing that I had spoken to Samuel about months ago up again. If you look at our logo, you’ll see the three spears. Yes, it also looks like trees, which is cool. It stands for restoring manhood, rescuing kids, and rebuilding families. At the core of what we’re trying to do is to restore manhood. I chose the word restore because the buzzword was redefine in the entrepreneurship world at the time—Everyone was redefining fitness, redefining this, and redefining that. But really, we’re not redefining anything. 

God already built it to be what it’s supposed to be. So we’re not here to redefine. We’re trying to restore the original blueprint of what God had intended men to be. We desire to restore manhood and rescue kids by donating between 30% and 40% to support companies and organizations that are rescuing and rehabilitating human trafficking victims. Rescuing these kids is just part of it; the second part is that these children experience so much trauma, darkness, and violence, and they need God to come in and fill that hole with light. These children need rehabilitation—these girls’ and women’s identities are going to change, and their understanding of what a man is supposed to be like and what a woman is supposed to be like will change. They need to be restored, and that’s what we’re passionate about. I believe that when a man is whole, he is coming alive; kids, too, will be rescued, homes will be rebuilt, and traditional family values will be restored. 

There needs to be a strong man to lead the homes. I’m not trying to take away from women because they have an equally important role. I’m just speaking directly to the men right now. Because that’s what God called us to be, right? There’s a reason He made Adam first and then Eve. There’s a calling for men to step up and be the protectors that they were called to be. I believe that if we’re able to restore manhood, reach the men, and reach the hearts of these men, we’ll be able to save more kids and rebuild family values so that the whole trafficking stuff starts to push that back because that is evil and satanic.

Imagine the generations impacted—these women and kids will eventually become parents, and if their foundation is already rooted in that darkness, what do you think their kids will experience? So, Redwood has a two-pronged approach. One, we’re approaching men because men are the main offenders. We’re trying to reach the hearts of men and bring Jesus into their world, meeting them where they’re at. Change their hearts. And then, hopefully, that will lead to rescuing more kids, and that will lead to rebuilding more families. If we stick to what we do at Redwood, and our specialty is working with men, you know, helping them find vision, helping them find clarity, and helping them rebuild. If God can trust us to be faithful in a few things, then He can trust us to be faithful with all the other things He will entrust us with all for His glory.

What encouraging last words can you share?

There’s a story in the Bible of the parable of the talents, and many people are familiar with it. There was a master who had three servants. He gave five talents to one servant, to another, he gave two, and to another, he gave one. The master left, but when he returned, the guy with five talents made it ten, the one given two made two more, and the one given one talent hid it because he was afraid. I want people to take away that God sometimes gives people five, sometimes two, and sometimes one, yes, but I want people to remember that God never made zero-talent people. God never made you with zero talents. At the very least, you have at least one. I believe you have many more. And if you look deeper into the scripture, they say that when the master gave his servant the five, two, and one talent, he gave it according to their ability. You have something hidden in you that maybe you haven’t fully discovered yet that God still wants to use. God still wants to take whatever talent and make it more of a blessing to other people, just like we discussed earlier. No matter how dark it may be for you, no matter how lost you feel, or maybe a lack of identity or lack of vision, you need to remember that you were made on purpose, with a purpose, and He never made zero-talent people—you still have a story to tell—you still have a gift to share with the world, so don’t give up. 

Operation Redwood YouTube Channel & Facebook Men's Group

Pastor Brian Graham

Founder of Beyond Walls Ministry & Beyond FM Radio

These are Pastor Brian's favorite scriptures...

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Can you share about your childhood, the progression of the addiction, going to prison, and how you came to Christ? 

I grew up in a home, living with my mom and dad, back and forth. My childhood wasn’t the best. My parents physically, mentally, and emotionally abused me. I remember times when my mom would grab me by my hair and drag me across the floor in our house, and my dad would beat us with extension cords and coaxial cables—he would use anything he could get his hands on. My childhood was not as good as it could have been, and it was very traumatic. Despite this, I’m grateful to God for my upbringing, as my parents always supported my regular church attendance. Still, the main reason I was going to church as a kid was to escape the abuse that was going on at home—it was a relief for me to get out of a demonic atmosphere. I always enjoyed worshiping God, being in the presence of church people, and being away from the house and the environment where I lived. I would attend church for this reason, but deep down, I sensed the Lord’s calling. When I went to church, I would look at the preachers who were preaching—I wanted to be like them—preach like them, talk like them, and dress like them, so I always knew in my heart that I was called to do something greater, but I didn’t know if I would ever make it to that point because of the abuse that I would suffer at my home. One thing, too, is when I was living with my mom, and when she would get tired of dealing with me, she would send me to my dad’s. And then, when my mom decided she would snatch me back out from my dad’s—I would have to go back and live with her. I hated it. I didn’t want to go live with my mom. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents because they, too, were another escape for me, like going to church was. Five different times while living at my dad's, someone molested me, so to escape, I either went to church or spent a lot of time at my grandma’s house—a way to get away and cope with what I was dealing with at home. 

When Did You Start Using Drugs?

As life went on, I slowly got into using drugs, and eventually, I started selling them too. I used to sell drugs all across the United States. We would load up U-Haul trucks with cocaine and marijuana and drive all over, distributing them. I became a full-blown alcoholic, drinking a fifth and a half of Jack Daniel’s daily. Back then, I didn’t realize it, but I now know I was trying to numb my pain and cope with the suffering I’d endured throughout my life. It took me years to understand why I was deeply involved in that lifestyle. Even while I was using and selling drugs and drinking heavily, I still felt drawn to church. I would go to church even when I was high and had drugs in my pocket. There was something about being in that place—it felt good. It was a feeling I never experienced at home. 

In February 1998, I got busted with seven pounds of marijuana and two eight balls of cocaine. They sent me to Harris County Jail in Texas and sentenced me to five years in prison. The judge’s sentence devastated me. I returned to my cell and called family members to tell them what happened. I told them I was going to prison for five years. In county jail, you typically wait about 45 days before being transferred to a state prison. While waiting, I unexpectedly received a letter saying the parole board wanted to see me. It was strange being called before the parole board before even setting foot in prison, but they granted me parole. I was so excited. I thought I was getting out and could start putting my life back together. I called my family—my mom, dad, aunts, and uncles—to let them know I’d made parole and ask if I could stay with them. One by one, they all hung up the phone. Nobody wanted me in their home. My family rejected me again. I was the black sheep of the family. Because I didn’t have a place to parole, I ended up serving the complete five-year sentence. The prison was no cakewalk. There’s a lot that goes on in there. While inside, I spent a lot of time thinking about my life. I knew I could’ve been out if I had just had an address. I started calling friends and acquaintances—anyone—and asked if I could use their addresses just to get released. I told them I didn’t need to stay with them to use the address. Every single person rejected me. One night, I was sitting on my bunk, devastated. I was 18 years old and scared. I began to pray and cry out to God. I poured out my pain and sorrow, and I repented. Then I heard God speak to me in a still, small voice: “If you are going to be healed, if you’re going to be set free and delivered, and if I’m going to use you, I need you to forgive the people in your life who have ever hurt you.”God told me to call out the name of every single person who had hurt me, abused me, misused me, or wounded me in any way. He gave me clear instructions: “Call them out by name. Say that you forgive them. Say that you love them. And release them into My hands.” It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. With every name I spoke, I cried like a baby. It got harder and harder, but I kept going. That night, I forgave everyone and truly surrendered my life to the Lord. And this time, it was real. Before, I had gone through the motions and did the “church” things, such as when the pastor said come to the altar, I went to the altar; when he said say a prayer, I said a prayer; and when he said get baptized, I got baptized, but nothing changed. There was no deliverance, no healing, no freedom. It wasn’t until I was completely alone, rejected by everyone else, that I realized I needed a Savior. That’s when everything started to change.

Did you get involved in prison ministry or Bible studies while you were in prison, and when did you get out? 

I did a lot of Bible studies through the mail, I signed up for a mentorship, and they assigned me a mentor, who paid for my Bible college. I went to a college in Louisiana and became a pastor and became what God called me to be, so I spent a lot of time studying God’s word, being involved in chaplaincy, and praying with other ministers and prison inmates. I’ve seen a lot of people give their lives to the Lord, and God used me in the prisons, and then I got out on May 9th, 2003. Upon release, I immediately visited my son; I had impregnated a woman before my imprisonment, and she gave birth while I was incarcerated. So when I got out, I traveled by bus from Houston to Oklahoma City to see him. When I arrived in downtown Oklahoma City near the Greyhound bus station, there was a ministry called Celebration of Life Church. They were having a men’s prayer gathering, and the leader of the men’s group had a short Bible study, so I went in and sat there and listened. On my bus ride back to Houston, I heard the Lord speak to me again… “I want you to sell everything you have, and I want you to move to Oklahoma.” So, when I got back, I put up a sign at my apartment to sell everything and quit my job. I was trying to sell everything at my apartment so I would have the money to get on a bus, go to Oklahoma, and have some extra cash to help me get through some things, find a place to live, and get settled. I gave myself a week, and in that entire week, nobody came by the house and bought anything. Well, the night before I was to leave to get on a bus, this little old lady who lived in a tiny traveling trailer came to my apartment and she bought everything and said, “I don’t know why I’m buying all this stuff.” And I don’t know where I’m going to put it.” She even bought my curtains! So I got on the bus and went to Oklahoma. I started attending the church where that Bible study was and was there for 4-5 years. I ended up becoming the associate pastor. It was a good time for me to train and practice discipleship. I’m grateful for the opportunity because it allowed me to get into ministry, see the ins and outs of running a church, and be part of praying for people, preaching, and ministering.  

Did you go back to Texas after having some ministry training? 

Yes, I ended up going back to Texas and got a job. I wasn’t involved in a lot of ministries for the first year. Then I felt I’ve always had a burden for homeless people, drug addicts, prostitutes, inmates, and ex-inmates because I understand them—I understand the addiction and struggle and know how it feels to be in their shoes. My wife and I started doing homeless ministry by making 40-60 plates of food, loading them up in our car with our two children, and going downtown, pulling up under a bridge, handing out food, praying for people, giving them clothes, and making up bags of personal care products—it was a blessing to be able to serve and be a light for Christ. We didn’t have much money, but we did what we could, and God always provided. God also used this time as ministry training. 

Through all that I went through in my past, I never quit dreaming. I never quit hoping. I never quit having faith in God. As I was healing, I continued to struggle and fall, but I continued to get back up, and I always held on to God. Maybe you too are in between, and you know what you should be doing—you know your purpose as I did, but you may not see it in the natural realm right now, but if you keep praying and believing, keep fasting, and keep seeking the Lord for whatever it is that He’s called and predestined and ordained for you to do—don’t ever give up because I know that what God has started in you, He is faithful and will complete it. He will be with you as you complete your mission and what God has called you to do. 

My heart is beyond the church walls because everything that we do is supposed to be—we’re to be servants for the people. Being in church and being behind the scenes and involved in it, I saw that there wasn’t a lot of outreaches or discipleship, and I didn’t want to stay cooped up in a building with the same 20, 30, 40, or 50 people for the next 20, 30, 40, or 50 years. I don’t believe that God designed the church to be there doing the same thing repeatedly. We’re supposed to go out into the highways and byways to compel the people to enter the church. That’s why I believe God gave me the name Beyond Walls. We would have worship at park events, pray for people, and baptize them in the parks; focus on community outreach; and follow up on evangelism. I would invite several churches to partner with us and help us put on the event so that when we go out into the community, there will be different churches, ministers, and people giving people options. We’re not there to get you to come to our church—they have options where they may like to attend and grow in their relationship with Jesus. Jesus himself was an evangelist and didn’t stay within the church walls, and I believe we are to follow in his footsteps and do the same.

Beyond Walls & Beyond FM Radio

Coach Lisa Pickart

Founder of the LifeBack System, Nutritionist, and Health Coach

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Truth, Talk & Testimonies

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Lisa, you have been on an incredible health journey because you lost 118 pounds—I can’t even imagine each step you took. But I know God was with you. What was your turning point? Because I know, from your bio you shared, that you had a lot of inflammation, thyroid disease, and fibromyalgia. What happened? 

I want to hit two separate sides here—one side is health, and the other side is spiritual. And then, of course, you have a mind that connects your body with the spirit, right? And sometimes, that can be a battle. We’re brought up one way: we hear certain things and come from different spiritual backgrounds and denominations. We have all of this pre-imprinting going on between birth and 18. During that timeframe, we also can have a lot of baggage, which I embrace—my baggage—and I’m thankful for it because I think it’s crucial to acknowledge God through it. For instance, I have molestation on my belt, failing and accelerating grades, being a tomboy and outgoing, then teachers and people in our lives who speak negative things to us. I even had a fifth-grade teacher tell me, “The way you smile and laugh all the time, you’re never going to amount to anything but a high school cheerleader.” So these voices go on; that’s just the external, but we have what was going on internally. Parents try their best. There are a lot of dysfunctional homes, and even functional homes can be dysfunctional.

So, I did a lot of yo-yo dieting and had a mom who also did the same. My mom was from the era of Joan Crawford and Elizabeth Taylor and raised me with an extravagant approach to fashion, hair, and makeup. I was the youngest of three girls. And so, having two older brothers, I became pretty athletic, definitely more of a tomboy. There were a lot of words from my father, whom I adore, who will now be 93 next month and is my strength internally. I wouldn’t have had my current strength without my father raising me, but his approach could have been better.

Jumping into my 30s and 40s, signs of menopause started. At 36, I was told that I should have a hysterectomy because cancer cells were present with a Pap smear. Having a hysterectomy didn’t seem right to me. Why would we lose our uteruses and ovaries? Thankfully, I didn’t listen to the doctor’s recommendation because, at 46, I had a child—I did lose six children before her in miscarriages. Still, I didn’t know at 46, when I gave birth, that 12 years later, we would be faced with losing her father. The next day after Eliya was born, I got sick every day for months. I thought I had food poisoning because everything I ate made me ill. It escalated to where I was afraid to eat anything. Well, now we know that it was liver disease and gallbladder disease, which were feeding hyperthyroidism. I ended up with thyroid eye disease, in which my eyes popped out of my head.

The underlying cause was a lot of stress, having a child later in life, being on the road, traveling worldwide, and blowing up buildings for our business. The stress kept building inside me, but God always told me it was okay and that He would go before me. We had a child on the road and were living in a vehicle 12-14 hours a day—driving 4,000 miles in four days is pretty intense, and then stopping to breastfeed—it was a lot. I felt like I was Wonder Woman, but I was getting sicker, and the inflammation was getting worse, to the point where my blood circulation was horrible. I started getting blood clots and neuropathy in my feet, and my health was snowballing. The bigger picture wasn’t about me but God's plan. When Eliya was shy of 12, she woke up one day and told me she didn’t want to travel anymore. I responded to her by saying, “Well, you know what? You were born into this life, and God has given it to you.” She is the youngest of the first six, and the others already left the house. Also, we did ministry on the road—we spoke at churches, went to many places, and wore three crosses on our construction hard hats, sharing God’s Word with everyone. Eliya begged me and shared her heart that she wanted to be a normal child and be home on the ranch with her horses. 

So I went to my husband, Eric, before he passed away; he wasn’t even sick that we knew of. And I told him, “This is going to be difficult, but you’ll need to take the guys on the road. Then, I will fly in for the day of the blast and do the implosions. He was surprised, but I explained her importance: she’s deeply knowledgeable in Scripture, loves the Lord, has been baptized, and has baptized other children. I said, “She wants to be home for a reason.” I ended up taking on three grandchildren in full custody and raising them. Eliya and one of them are the same age, so we call them Irish twins because they were born six weeks apart, and then there’s one 18 months older and one 18 months younger. So, I was raising four, and we were on the road, just living life. There were a lot of undercurrents, like a riptide in the ocean, but the boat was still floating on top. Amid everything, I was still yo-yo dieting and would gorge and get sicker every day. When I started getting deeper into reading the Bible, the Lord showed me that gluttony and worry are sins. At this time, I was 57 and nearing 58, and we needed to go to two overbooked jobs, so Eric went to Atlanta and called me. He was coughing badly, and I said, “You don’t sound good. You need to go to an urgent care.” Urgent care told him he had walking pneumonia. We have our family Christmas time in Idaho, and nobody knows that Eric is dying of cancer—even Eric. This persistent cough wasn’t going away, so he went to the emergency room with some prompting. I noticed that he was getting weaker.

When they diagnosed Eric, I wasn’t with him, as I was in Washington with the girls, and he was in Idaho when he called me after he collapsed in the driveway. I told him to call 911, so he called them, and then they called me to tell me they had a man in my driveway. I told them, “Yes, that’s my husband… please get him to the emergency room.” They life-flighted him to the hospital and took out four gallons of fluid from his lungs. And he called me and said, “Yeah, I’m sick, but it’s a blessing and proceeded to tell me that he has cancer. I dropped to the ground and was crying and didn’t hear the rest of the conversation. He then told me that if he had come in six months earlier, he probably could have fought it, but there wouldn’t be a fight because he was surrendering. Eric gets restored either way, and he believes that God will heal him on this planet or in heaven. I was bawling, and it was hard talking without getting emotional. It was a blessing for Eric because he loved the Lord so much, but the news was excruciating for me. I told the kids to start packing up so we could head back home to Idaho and told Eric that I needed to be with him, but Eric interjected and said, “No, no, no… You don’t need to be with me. Jesus is with me. I’ve already been through the garden… It’s going to be fine. Please take care of the girls, enjoy the weekend, and then when you come back, stop by the hospital.”

I was feeling overwhelmed, and everything in my life started getting a hundred times worse, including my weight. I asked Eric why he felt like having cancer was good news, and he replied, “Because it’s mesothelioma. We need to tell the family immediately because both of my grandparents died from mesothelioma, and the odds are that because I was by them, I got it off of their clothes.” Mesothelioma is a tiny spur that gets in your lungs. I said, “Are you sure it’s not from work?” He says, “No, I’m positive I got it from my grandparents because it takes 40 years to rear its ugly head." So I was like, okay, “I’m going to try to find the blessing in this.”

Upon our arrival at the hospital, he was in a jolly mood and felt great, in contrast to my frazzled and absolute basket-case state. I was the woman; when we weren't near each other, I almost thought I couldn’t breathe—our lives were so intertwined and meshed. I knew I needed to trust the Lord wherever He took this. I needed to be strong and believe we’re going to make it, so every day, I would say to God, “God, your will over mine, your will over mine, your will over mine, whatever that looks like, Lord, but I’m going to ask you that you hold me and direct me because you know what it will take for me to process this because I’m a person who is a long thinker, I don’t make rash decisions, and I like to plan.” The oldest was 14, then there were double 12s and a 10, and they asked, “Mom, why do you feel like crying when Dad’s dying? And I said, Well, that’s an excellent question.” At that moment, God reminded me how we raise our children to trust the Lord. Suddenly, I doubted if I was fully trusting God, and I started to question my faith because I was asking myself, do I trust? One day, one of my daughters said, Mom, put your arms out. I’m going to jump to you," and at that moment, I knew the Lord was saying… “My arms are up… Jump.”  

On March 19th, the hospital said, “Go home and get your affairs in order. And my husband goes, “You don’t know my God; you don’t know what He has in store. Don’t tell me I’m dying,” but we all knew that the tumor had moved over on top of his aorta, and he could no longer breathe. His breath was getting shorter and shorter. And from that day, March 19th, to April 1st, it was the time that it took for his body to shut down and pass away. 

I was very ill during this time, but I had to put my health aside because caring for Eric and our children was the priority. It wasn’t about Mom; the children were quickly learning this new way of life. We had 200 acres to take care of, running the dozer and tractor, changing the oil, cutting wood, and taking care of the horses and cows, and the girls stepped in and took care of things. We all laugh about it because they learned so much in a short time that maybe they would have never learned had we not gone through this challenge.  

It was about three days before Eric passed that our youngest asked me while breaking down in tears, “I don’t understand why God is so mean.” I said, “He’s not, but one by one, He calls us home, and this is your goal to get yourself there one day too… It takes a lot of courage to have that faith, just like you do with me. You trust me every day, but I don’t want you to trust me—I want you to trust that God knows what’s best for our family.”

We turned our family room into an area for everybody to sleep, hang out, and spend those last hours together. We had a lot of visitors that week who came and prayed over him and said their goodbyes. Eric had been incoherent those previous days because of the morphine. The pain had gotten to where it was excruciating. You know that marriage isn’t always perfect—it doesn’t matter who you are because we’re all broken people. Eric looked at me and said, “I’m sorry for everything.” And I said, “Oh, we’re good. You are so forgiven. Don’t worry about it. It’s all good." And then, he told me, “I love you,” and his eyes never opened again or spoke another word. After he passed, I got the girls, and there was a lot of crying and hugs. 

The next night after Eric’s passing, we remained very quiet—we spoke few words but shared a few jokes and memories. When I woke up, four girls were in bed with me, which they never did before. I said good morning to them, and everyone said, “Are you ready? What are we going to do now?” In my head, I was wondering that I had no clue because I needed to shut my business down; I was facing losing the property and finding a new place to live, and suddenly, I replied in faith to the girls, “We’re going to live and love life and celebrate.” My favorite Scripture that came to mind about our day of death is more significant than our day of birth is Ecclesiastes 7:1. So I said, "You know what, we’re going to live, and we’re going to love life." I embraced all four of them and said, “All I can tell you is that when I had you guys and looked at you, that was the greatest moment of my life. Dad is in heaven in the arms of the Lord, and that is a time to rejoice. Now, it’s our books and chapters that we need to live for God.” To this day, they all serve God, and their goal is to get home to heaven, and we’ll all be reunited.

A couple of days went by, and I realized that I was getting sicker. And it scared me because I was the only surviving parent. It was a significant burden, and the stress was pretty high financially. Eight months went by without health insurance, and finally, I got some coverage through the state for myself and the girls for dental and essential health. I made a doctor’s appointment for myself and was informed that my liver wasn’t good, my thyroid had Graves disease, and my body was acting like an 88-year-old woman and getting closer to shutting down. Then, the sheriff notified me that they would be taking the property, and we didn’t have a place to live. In between everything, I had people stopping by to ask if they could start helping us pack or move the animals. The children became agitated, saying, “Do not touch my dad’s clothes. We’re not leaving this property. God’s going to save our house.” A lot of hope was going on amid everything else. I told the girls, “Maybe God has a bigger plan, and because we’re stuck in our chapter, we can’t even see the great gifts coming to us.” I noticed that as soon as I started seeing the picture in a different light, they, too, increased in hope and faith for our future. It was also at this time that I could hardly walk. 

The children were grocery shopping for me, which was usually my responsibility. I gave them the money and told them what to get on the cell phone, so we were a wreck. However, their willingness to take on this responsibility showed their maturity and understanding of our situation, which was a source of pride and inspiration for me. We had a feast on Thanksgiving Day, and on December 4th, we needed to surrender our home. Out of nowhere, this lady I don’t know told me they had some cabins—they didn’t have running water or a toilet. Still, if we wanted to put our horses on the back property and bring the girls, she would give them to me. Four minutes before the bank took the property, someone purchased it, which helped me pay off my debt to Medicare. One business debt was handled, and I was given a check for $25,000. So we had a little breathing room and had two weeks off the property, but we were packed up in four days. God closed the door; we were blessed to live there but needed to leave.

On Christmas Eve, we celebrated Christ, and New Year’s came; on January 7th, I received a call that my mother had only hours to live, and she passed on January 9th. It was overwhelming because I had one support system gone, and now another was, too. My thyroid had a considerable flare-up, and my eyes were now wholly extended from my head. It was a lot to deal with at one time with all the underlying pressure, but I heard God speak and say to me, “Are you trusting me?” All things are possible with God, according to Philippians 4:13. I needed to focus on the Lord and forget all things going on in my world—the stress, people, and anyone judging me—and it didn’t matter. 

When my mom passed away, she left me $40,000, and another friend carried a mortgage on a house, so we lived there to help. It was a double-wide house, and it was me and the girls. The move-in day was April 1st, the first anniversary of Eric’s passing. I felt like the Book of Job, losing everything and then everything being restored. When we were moving into that house on Facebook, our reunion group from high school was praying for Eric and me, the girls, and the family. My high school sweetheart, who went to the Air Force, asked if that was Lisa because he didn’t recognize the married last name. A good friend of ours said yes and told him that her husband was sick and passed. Kenneth gave me a call but hit the camera by accident. He had never used the camera for a video call before, but he was shocked and said, “Oh, my gosh, there you are!” And on my side of the phone, before I answered, I said, “Oh my gosh, this guy I know is calling on video chat—I can’t talk; I’m broken, and my life is a wreck.” I got the courage to answer, and he asked if I was OK. I told him, “No, I’m so broken and don’t know how the future looks, and I can’t even comprehend anything that’s happened over the last three years.” He told me he would come to see me and would like to help us in any way possible. Here, we lived in a 1,100-square-foot double-wide, and we used to have a 5,000-square-foot home. COVID was going around, and we just got over COVID ourselves. I knew, though, to take one step at a time—put one foot in front of the other, and soon you’ll be walking out the door.  

Kenneth and I started a relationship about a year later, and then we made plans to get married. He said, “If you’re not busy in four years, will you marry me? I’ve waited 45 years to marry you. Would you please marry me?” And I was like, “No, I’m a broken mess; I’ve got kids and all this other stuff.” Well, we finally decided to get married on July 3rd of 2021, and on July 1st, he had three grand mal seizures and was in the hospital. I dropped to my knees for the second time and said to God, “Lord, I can’t do this again. There’s just no way. I don’t understand. We’re going to be a family. We’re moving.” Clearly, in a vision, God showed me a drawn line in the sand, speaking to my heart, saying, “Lisa, everything on this side of the earth means the world to you, but on this side, it doesn’t mean anything to me—not the house, not the car, not the job, not the money. I need you. I need your thoughts, your faith, and your eyes. It will be OK if you trust me.”

While Kenneth was in the hospital, I told him that I didn’t think we should get married, and he responded, “If it’s the last thing I do before I take my last breath, we’re getting married.” So, the next day, we got married, and we watched him for three months for seizures.

Meanwhile, I made a phone call, and this phone call didn’t go to the person I called. The person who answered told me how he helps people heal their livers, and one of the root causes of seizures is liver dysfunction. One of the significant symptoms is if you had hepatitis C and now have liver cirrhosis, which was where Kenneth was. So we started changing our diets and a program immediately. That was in July, and by September, he needed to go in for blood work at the Mayo Clinic to see if he could be a candidate for a liver transplant. The answer was no because, after the age of 60, it gets less likely because the average age for a man to pass away is 74, so they would rather give that healthy liver to a healthy person than to an older one. 

With this news, we quickly removed all chemicals from our house and stopped consuming carbohydrates and sugar—everything was gone—it was a struggle because you don’t realize how addicted to sugar you are. As a nutritionist, I went back, and I looked at every single scientific study and documentation from the beginning of time, moving all the way forward and searching for when fatty liver disease became the death of humans versus liver cirrhosis by alcohol. Like, when did that happen? So here I was, looking all this up. Big Pharma has been in bed with the FDA and the Food Administration. All the chemicals and stuff we’re getting in our system are the culprits of what’s destroying our liver. 

So, now I’m on fire—I have a spark of light and am on a new adventure—and God is showing me so much, and it was Holy Spirit-led on how to heal the liver. So we pursued what we have been applying to our lives, and in January, we both went in for blood work, and for me, it was the first time in 5 years since I had blood work. I am on the back burner again because I went from caring for myself to caring for someone else. And my words of wisdom for anybody are that taking care of yourself is not selfish. It’s selfish not to because people need you. They ran the blood work, called us back a week later, and said, “There’s something wrong here.” And I said, “What do you mean?” And they said, “The blood work of the man we have from July is a man with one leg in the grave, and this blood work is like a 32-year-old man’s blood work.” I then asked the doctor what my thyroid looked like, and he told me that I didn’t have a thyroid issue. I told him, “No, I do; check my records. I have hyperthyroidism, Graves disease, thyroid eye disease, and a list of 12 autoimmune diseases. And he said, “Well, you don’t have them now. And I was like, “What!” And he said, “You don’t have anything. You have somehow or another had bad blood work, or something happened, but this is all gone.” So Kenneth and I were on to something and continued to follow a carnivore diet because everything else was spiking insulin and causing liver issues and brain fog. Then, a friend of ours heard that Kenneth had liver cirrhosis. He asked how he was doing and told him, “You’re not going to believe this, but we are one month from celebrating one year of life after he was told 30 to 90 days to live—they didn’t even want to do treatment or to have any hope for him because he was under 10% functioning of his liver. So obviously, God has bigger plans, and it has been an absolute miracle moving forward to today, the LifeBack name came because we all want our lives back—everyone wants to go to heaven, but we don’t want to go today—we want to get to the Lord and go to heaven, but if you’re called home today, are you ready to surrender everything and go? 

When you are going through tough times, it seems you are stuck somewhere in the hallway, be steadfast about His business. Be faithful and immovable. 1 Corinthians 15:58. Even though he may not have opened the door or a window, and you don’t know where you’re going, you still need to be busy with His work. What does it mean to be about His business or work? Being a good disciple, having a sound mind, and following His lead. This is surrendering—literally every day, it was all about sweet surrender and trusting Him in the storm. He gives me an understanding that surpasses our own because He knows what’s best. We think that we know it all—that we’re brilliant—that we’ve got an education and degrees and experience and all this stuff, but He told me, “You’re just my child; you’re my child, and I’m your Father, and you need to listen to me.” 

Through all this, and coming to today, the LifeBack System was birthed by a high school guy who introduced me to another guy, who became my business partner. He said, “Your story is incredible, and the information on the liver is so powerful to help people get their life back.” This is where the name was born because when God takes us through the journey or the wilderness, it’s not to have us have pain and sorrow—it’s having us draw closer to Him, so when the time comes, we are ready to go home. God is so faithful. God gave me His peace, not my own, and He was so profound in helping me understand that I’m just dust to dust; it’s just a blink or moment in time, and the future of me is in His hands, and how I was going to show my children to have the strength and courage and have blind faith and put everything in His hands.

LifeBackSystem.com

LifeBack System YouTube Channel

LifeBack Warriors

Former Secret Service Officer, a wife, mom, and Founder and President of the Hive and Hope Foundation

These are Elizabeth's favorite scriptures...

Elizabeth shared her story on Truth, Talk & Testimonies

Elizabeth's testimony is also on VictoryEmbraced: Truth, Talk & Testimonies podcast platforms

Before you had your precious son, Becket, your first child, you had a few challenging pregnancies. Could you share about these?

Absolutely. My husband and I got married in October 2020, and we felt the Lord tell us to start trying to grow our family in the summer of 2021, so we obeyed the Lord and got pregnant almost immediately, which was wonderful and such a blessing, and then, unfortunately, we lost that baby early on. Nobody had ever spoken to me about miscarriages or what to expect or anything, so quite honestly, I didn’t even know I was going through a miscarriage until it was over. I went to the OBGYN, and she confirmed that I had a miscarriage, and it was heartbreaking. After I got cleared by the doctors to try again, we prayed about it, and we felt peace to try again. After a few months, we got pregnant with triplets. That was a giant shock, but multiples run in my family. We were ecstatic and said, “Oh my gosh, the Lord is blessing us with a double portion." We made it almost until the second trimester, and I began cramping, and I said, “Well, there are three of them in there, so it could be normal that I’m feeling this way.” Then, I passed one of the babies at home, and immediately, I told my husband we had to go to the emergency room. Thankfully, the emergency room was less than five minutes from our house, but unfortunately, that’s where I passed my babies, and that was very hard because I knew what was happening at that point. The experience felt like a stolen promise, and it was a devastating time for us both. I had to take off of work to mourn the losses of my four babies. After losing our four kids, I would rather not try again for a while because I was afraid, traumatized, upset, and sorrowful. However, after much praying, we got cleared by the doctors. We waited a few months, tried, and then got pregnant with our son Becket. Becket was born in October 2022, and it was such a blessed pregnancy and easy—the only thing that wasn’t easy was just being paranoid and battling anxiety because of my previous losses, so of course, I was terrified. Still, I had to fight a lot of fear during that time, and the Lord spoke to me during pregnancy and gave me worship songs and scriptures and had random people from the church that I didn’t even know what happened previously come up to me and say, “This child shall live and not die.” They prophesied life over my son. I had Becket, and then about when he was five weeks old, on Thanksgiving Day of 2022, we started to notice these episodes—we didn’t know what happened or what could have caused it. Still, he began to shake uncontrollably; his eyes were fluttering, his extremities were tensing up and then shaking, and my husband and I were so scared. We had never seen anything like that before as first-time parents, so we took him to the emergency room that night.

Did they give any indication of what was going on with Becket? Did they have any idea at that point?

Unfortunately, no. The episode stopped, and Becket’s vitals looked fine, so the emergency room doctor checked him as much as he could and told us to bring him back if it happened again. They had no answers, so this began the long journey of my husband and me researching, reading, trying to see what was going on, and watching YouTube videos to try to link what happened to our son to what information could be out, to what the cause could have been.

You shared, too, that you went through postpartum depression. When did that come into play? Was that with your pregnancy with Becket?

My postpartum happened after I gave birth to Becket. I was a brand new mother and very sleep-deprived; the challenges that came with nursing and being unfamiliar with my baby started postpartum, and then Becket’s episodes drove it home and were a kind of the nail in the coffin for postpartum for me. I didn’t know what was going on with my baby, and I had no idea how to help him—he was suffering, and I had no idea what to do. 

I know that postpartum could present itself with different symptoms for different women. What were your symptoms?

I went through a lot of rage. I think that was my number one symptom, and also I had a lot of anxiety. Furthermore, I didn’t eat very much, and then other days, I overate. It was hard for me to go outside, even though I knew I needed to go outside, and I was not pleasant to be around. There’s a difference when you’re tired and sleep-deprived and all the usual things that come with having a brand new baby, but then there’s the other side where your heart is hard, and you treat people differently than you usually would. I was particularly nasty to my husband, father, and stepmother-in-law because they came from Florida to help me, and I didn’t treat them very well.

How did you become Becket’s advocate? And how did the Holy Spirit help lead and guide you and your husband as you noticed more symptoms with Becket? 

So, after the emergency room visit, we noticed he had more episodes each day. It became a daily thing and then multiple times per day, and the symptoms presented about the same as before. There was eye fluttering and tensing up of his extremities, and then there were times when it sounded like he wasn’t breathing and struggled to breathe. We took him to his former pediatrician and showed her the logs we’d written, and we had a shared note in our iPhone where we wrote down the time of the episode, the characteristics, how long they lasted, and the frequency. We also took some pictures and videos to show her, and she looked at it and said, “Oh, it looks like it might be reflux—a severe form of reflux and maybe Sandifer syndrome.” We didn’t know what Sandifer’s was, so we looked it up, and it was just like she said: it’s a symptom of a reflex where it looks like a baby is having a seizure, but it occurs after they feed. So we thought that looked like what Becket was going through, but something inside us, the Holy Spirit, told us there was more going on and wrong, and we needed to investigate it more. During this time, of course, we sought the Lord and prayed, and at this point, we tried to figure out what was wrong with our son. At times, it was difficult to hear God, even though He was constantly speaking to us—it was hard for us to hear due to our anxieties. We kept advocating for Becket. After visiting the pediatrician initially, I would send her messages on this app called My Chart and give her updates at least once a week. I was that mom because I wanted to make sure they had all the information they needed to try to help my son. Eventually, I went to the pediatrician again, and he had an episode in front of her in real-time. She looked at me and said, “This looks like it could be a seizure.” Previously, though, she was saying it could be colic; it could be the period of purple crying, which purple stands for something, but I forget what it stands for. Still, until this point, she would say other things that could be so; after she saw the episode happen, she referred us to a neurologist. About a week and a half later, we got in to see the neurologist. Still, we didn’t know that it was via Tella Health at an off-site location, so when we went into the doctor’s office and went to the back, this computer rolled in front of us, and the neurologist was through the screen, and he asked us if we could show him a video of the episodes. We put our phone up to the screen and showed him one video, and within 10 seconds, the neurologist said, “Nope, it’s not seizures—it’s reflux.” My husband and I said, “Are you sure because you only looked at it for 10 seconds?” Something was still not sitting right with us. The physician’s assistant took him at his word, and the appointment ended. At that point, my husband and I knew we needed to get an EEG done to get further information that could tell if Becket was having seizures. We had to fight and advocate with the physician's assistant for a few minutes, but she finally said okay and referred us to have an EEG done. We felt we had a victory in getting what we asked for, and a few days later, we got admitted. Becket had the EEG, but no episodes appeared within the two hours during the test. The doctors said, “Hey, he’s not having seizures—he’s fine, so continue the reflex medicines.” My husband and I looked at each other again, and we asked the doctors, “Are you sure because he didn’t even have an episode—How can you know for sure?” We respect what the doctors do and their expertise, but we are the experts of our child, and we knew that something was still wrong, and the doctor kept saying he was okay. Nick and I took our sweet son back home, and the episodes continued and worsened. I did everything I could and went on a total elimination diet or TED. I eliminated a wide range of foods, including milk, dairy, and eggs, to investigate potential effects on my son’s health, which further complicated my breastfeeding journey, as I believed my son’s milk was causing him harm. We also put him on a formula that didn’t work—he was on a bunch of reflux medications that didn’t work, and he eventually went on a specialized amino acid-based formula that also didn’t work. We were so frustrated. It was around five months of constantly going back and forth, always, My Charting his pediatricians and specialists, everybody—and I was also called a paranoid first-time mom by one of the doctors, and it made me question if I was paranoid, but the Holy Spirit kept me strong. Both Nick and I knew there was something wrong. Eventually, I went to the specialist and said, “Hey, I’m taking my son to another hospital. I don’t trust you guys because you haven’t listened to us. I’m advocating for my son and know something is very wrong." At that time, I took him to a new pediatrician in another state who is still Becket’s current pediatrician. He had an episode in front of him, and the pediatrician looked at me and said, “What are you doing? You need to take him to the emergency room right now! This is a seizure.” God used my son’s current pediatrician to confirm that everything that we were feeling, everything that we were sensing, was correct. After his current pediatrician told us this, we took him to the emergency room in another state, and they admitted him and ran a 24-hour EEG, confirming that he indeed was having seizures. With this news, it felt like the floor beneath us just broke. We knew there was something more profound wrong, but to have it confirmed by a doctor was excruciating and very upsetting, so we both cried a lot and told the neurologist that he was going to be doing a genetic swab test in our mouth to confirm and help figure out a potential cause. Hence, they did a genetic test on Becket first, and we had the results back within a week and had a phone call. The neurologist said, “Your son has a rare genetic condition that is causing his seizures called Tuberous Sclerosis Complex, or TSC, which is a condition with no cure, and it produces non-cancerous tumors to grow in various parts of your body—in your eyes, brain, kidneys, lungs, and heart." A lot of the time, TSC is also the leading genetic condition for autism, so once we heard that Becket had TSC, the neurologist asked us if they could swab me and Nick to ensure that we didn’t have it. When we got the tests back, we discovered that Nick has TSC. It’s interesting because TSC is such a broad spectrum, and Nick has never had a seizure and presents no symptoms. In contrast, Becket has uncontrollable seizures despite several anti-epileptic drugs that he’s on.

What happened at the end of 2023 that took a turn for the worse?

After doctors diagnosed Becket in May 2023, he received the necessary treatment, assistance, and therapies, and things looked good. In September, we decided to go to Minnesota to see his godparents and then, right after, go to Texas to see my mother-in-law to spend time with family. They all loved seeing him, and he had a great time being on a boat for the first time. All of a sudden, his seizures got so bad that he would have about 100 seizures per day, and although they were quick, they were frequent. It got to the point where his lips turned blue, and he stopped breathing with almost every seizure, even for a little so even though the seizures were short, they occurred so frequently that each time he stopped breathing, it was horrible for him. Nick and I laid hands on him and prayed; his godparents are strong Christians, and we were in an excellent household full of Christians who laid hands on him and worshiped around him, bringing so much peace. So, after these seizures kept occurring, we reached out to his neurologist back home via My Chart. We told her what was going on and jumped on phone calls and told them they were so bad and that Becket, Nick, and I weren’t getting any sleep because every time he was awake, he was having a seizure. After sharing this with the neurologist, she said, “You guys are going to Houston, so I know the neurosurgeon there. Maybe neurosurgery is your next step?” Becket was on a bunch of medication and a rescue medication that was strong and was supposed to stop his seizures once they met a particular criterion, but it didn’t stop them at all. We responded that we were 100% on board to talk about surgery. When we got to Houston, it was by God’s grace that we got to have an appointment with this neurosurgeon because, typically, it takes months to get on the books to meet with him. We met him within a few days of being in Houston, and he sat us down and gave us our options and said we needed to do a presurgical workup. He explained that the presurgical workup involved X, Y, and Z, and that we would likely need a two-week stay. They sent us home that day, and then Nick returned to West Virginia for work, while I chose to stay with my mother-in-law and Becket to ensure his well-being and allow for a quick return to the hospital if necessary. A lot was going on at that time. One day, while we were watching TV, Becket started to have a terrible seizure, and it lasted longer than usual. He wasn’t breathing, and the color of his face was changing. I looked at my mother-in-law and said, “We need to go to the emergency room right now!” She took us to Texas Children’s Hospital to the emergency room, and what was supposed to be a couple of days stay ended up being an almost three-month stay with a couple of emergency brain surgeries. I called Nick and told him everything, and they got us a room, and we went up to the epilepsy monitoring unit at Texas Children’s Hospital. They began the presurgical workup, which took a few weeks, and during that time, it was very lonely because Nick was back home for work—he didn’t have generous paid time off at the time and had no option to work from home. His job knew what was happening, so they tried to accommodate him as much as possible, but he still couldn’t stay with us, so it was me, the Lord, and Becket. It was isolating. After he got the presurgical workup done, he had his first brain surgery when he turned one-year-old. Nick and I were so hopeful. The whole day, Becket was in surgery, and I was a complete mess, but I tried to keep my mind busy. I walked downtown, drank much coffee, prayed, and wrote in. Then, about 8-10 hours later, I received a call that Becket was done, so I ran to the hospital, and Nick met me there after arriving at the airport. We saw Becket in the recovery room, and as soon as we walked into his room, he had a seizure. Nick and I couldn’t believe it; we thought it was a nightmare because we were so hopeful that he would be seizure-free after his surgery. The seizure was so bad that we needed to be transferred to the ICU, and as he was transferred to the ICU, his oxygen and heart rate tanked. There were several nurses there who were trying to bag him and ensure his heart rate and oxygen came back up—there were probably close to 15-20 people in the ICU room, trying to get him to breathe, so Nick and I almost lost him, and it was a tough time for us, but the doctors and nurses there are phenomenal, and they got him back to where he needed to be, but it was during that time when the neurosurgeon came up and said, “I’m so sorry—sometimes this happens. We’re going to try again; we’re going to do all the presurgical workups again, draw the labs, the MRIs, and all the scans to ensure that we can get this because something went wrong and we didn’t get what we needed to get.” He took responsibility and was humble. Dr. Howard Weiner is incredible. Nick and I were mad, upset, and scared, but God had us there for a reason, and regardless of what the journey looked like—we knew it would help many more people than our sweet son, so we stayed steadfast and partnered with Dr. Weiner and trusted it would work out. During this time, a lot of the nurses would come in to try to bag Becket with oxygen—his seizures were short but severe to the point where his oxygen would tank quickly, but then come up quickly. They would rush in to bag him because the monitor lagged, and they were bagging him when he was completely fine, so I advocated for him and said, “Hey, I understand what you’re doing. The monitors beeped, but he’s okay now.” I told the nurses this several times and let them know that I was watching him like a hawk and that I would let them know if things didn’t look good and that I understood that they were trained to do what they were doing, but as a person constantly watching him, he’s okay. That was a partnership that I needed to establish with our medical team. Fast forward, Becket got his new presurgical workup done, and then he had a second brain surgery about three weeks after his first. Nick and I were nervous wrecks—he just turned one in November. We prayed to God and told Him we trusted Him 100% with our whole hearts. We’re not going to lean on our understanding or what the doctors say, even though God uses medicine and doctors, and it’s an incredible blessing. However, we understand that His Word is final; His Word states that we are healed by His stripes. We kept declaring scripture over him and worshiping. We had other people from other churches that I didn’t even know come by and pray over us, visitors who gave us food, gift cards, and coffee. I lived off of coffee—I still do, but especially back then. Becket had his second brain surgery, and when he came out, he was babbling and laughing and being his silly self and wanted to eat, which was incredible. We were excited. Becket was seizure free for about six months, and then, unfortunately, his seizures came back last Easter. It has been an incredible journey with our sweet Becket. His seizures aren’t as bad as they were before surgery, which is such a blessing that he’s stable and still on medication, but he’s advancing so much. He’s almost two and a half, about to walk, babbling a lot, and has a few words under his belt, and he’s such a fantastic kid. We are still on this journey but strongly believe in the Lord. The Lord was and is so close to us; we have unshakable hope in Him.

Elizabeth Brown is the Founder and President of the Hive and Hope Foundation, whose mission is to improve the quality of life and bring hope to children with complex special needs and their families affected by critical illnesses, genetic conditions, and epilepsy. 

Brian and Shawn Chrisagis

Founders of the Chrisagis Brothers Ministries & Productions

“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5

Brian and Shawn Chrisagis were born with life-threatening allergies to the sun, grass, most foods, and clothing. The doctors said they wouldn't live past the age of two, but now—they are walking, talking miracles. The twins needed to be in an incubator for the first two years of their lives. When their parents brought them home from the hospital, the windows of their house were covered with bricks to protect them from the sun. The Chrisagis Brothers' early years were marked by a series of "tests and errors" from doctors in the United States, Italy, France, and Germany. It was discovered that the only foods they could eat were soybeans, milk, sardines, rice cakes, and peanut butter. Their mother (Marguerite Chrisagis) and grandmother (Carmie 'Nana' DeFilippo) made all their clothing out of the few fabrics their skin didn't react to. If they had to go outside, they would have to cover up with hats and blankets–if the sun touched their skin, they could die and have to be rushed to the hospital.

 
When Brian and Shawn were seven years old, their mother, Marguerite, suffered from a severe heart condition and became confined to a wheelchair and needed oxygen. One day, Marguerite went to a healing service at a Full Gospel Businessmen's meeting. After the sermon, she went forward to ask the preacher, Father Michael Scanlan, to pray for her sons' healing, but he insisted on praying for her. Father Scanlan told her that as a parent, she had the authority in her home to stand in the gap and pray for her sons' healing and deliverance. That is when Marguerite learned how to break the bloodline of sickness, death, and disease over her home and loved ones.

After Father Scanlan prayed for Marguerite, she got out of her wheelchair, took off her oxygen, ran around, and wasn't winded. When she got home, she had the whole family pray over her sick children. Marguerite' felt an evil spirit push her onto the floor,' and the twins were instantly healed from all sickness! Marguerite asked the boys to name anything they would like to eat in the act of faith. "Hot fudge sundae!" was the unanimous response, and the family went out to a nearby restaurant for the boys' first ice cream.

The entire week, the family went to the doctors, who "redid the tests and x-rays about five times" before they finally confirmed the twins were entirely well and their mother had "a new heart." Their doctor became a born-again believer that day, marking the beginning of the twins' powerful ministry. Today, Brian and Shawn are ordained ministers who have devoted their lives to sharing their powerful testimony and God's love through their music and creativity.

 
The Chrisagis Brothers have become staples for their wholesome family entertainment and fun through the years. To check out Brian and Shawn's biography and career highlights, please visit their ministry site, The Chrisagis Brothers Ministries & Productions

Chrisagis Brothers Music CD's

Chrisagis Brothers Support Club

ArtBy Chrisagis

If you are interested in purchasing artwork from Brian & Shawn please message them on their ArtBy Chrisagis Facebook page. Artwork is $50 plus shipping @ $8---each picture is 8 and a half by 11--larger sizes are 11 by 17 for $70 plus shipping. Proceeds help support this wonderful ministry!   

Little House on the Prairie by Shawn

Russ Taff and David Phelps by Brian & Carmen and Michael W. Smith by Shawn

Kathy Troccoli by Brian

A beautiful book about the Chrisagis Brothers Mother, Marguerite "Margie" Chrisagis, and their family called A Legacy of Love--by Debbie Fuller (Author), The Chrisagis Brothers (Contributor) -- Click on the book cover to order on Amazon 

Special tribute song for Brian & Shawn's Mother Marguerite "Margie" Chrisagis called If Heaven Had a Phone

Jesus Everywhere I Go Music Video--Classic MTV video that made the Chrisagis Brothers known

In Loving Memory

Shawn Chrisagis, of the beloved singing duo The Chrisagis Brothers, passed suddenly in June 2023. Shawn was a minister of the gospel, singer, and performer who loved the Lord and people with all his heart. He was anointed, loving, creatively brilliant, and authentic. Shawn will be greatly missed by all those who loved and cared for him and by all the lives he touched while sharing the love of Jesus. Well done, good and faithful servant! —Matthew 25:23

In 2025, Brian started a podcast called I Pressed On, which takes the word DEPRESSION and rearranges the letters to something positive. This show was born out of Brian's great loss of his twin brother, Shawn. I Pressed On Podcast

Chrisagis Ministries

Jamie Baird

Finance Company Onboarding Training

These are Jamie's favorite scriptures...

Jamie shared her story on Truth, Talk & Testimonies

Jamie's testimony is also on VictoryEmbraced: Truth, Talk & Testimonies podcast platforms

How old were you when you gave your life to Christ?

My parents raised me in a Christian home—we joke that I was born on a Sunday, and then the following Sunday, I was at church, and that was pretty much my whole experience growing up. I remember my dad leading me to the Lord, when I was four. My dad walked me through the Roman road to salvation, and I believe it was a Wednesday night when I came home from church asking questions. He made it very simple to understand that I was a sinner even at the age of four—we’re all born sinners—and that Jesus was the only way to forgive sins and to go to heaven.

When you went to college, were you still following Christ there too?

Yes. My parents ensured we were in church and were there whenever the doors opened. I went to a private Christian school, K-12, and after that, I went to a local secular university where I was on fire for God. I led a Bible study on campus, and my faith was very grounded—the worldview of a secular education didn’t affect me. What happened to me reminds me of the scripture that talks about how Satan is like a roaring lion walking to and fro seeking whom he can devour, and it just takes a small opening to start getting in trouble. One benefit of being saved at such a young age is that you are sheltered from many influences and things that can cloud your faith. Still, on the catch side, sometimes when you’re saved at such a young age, you’re so sheltered or protected that your faith kind of never really has an opportunity to grow like a muscle or grow and be exercised because, again, you’re insulated, and so it was after college that was the first time that my faith had been tested—some things were going on in our church in terms of division. There were people I looked up to that I saw doing things that I knew were not biblical, and for the first time in my life, it caused me to step back and say, “Well, if this is how God lets his people do things or live, then what’s the point of following God?” If He’s in control and this stuff still happens, what’s the point? We have free will, but our lives should align with scripture and the fruit of the spirit if we’re true Christians. And this was the quick dive of turning my back on my faith for some time.

What happened next? 

After college, I moved away for what began as law school, but became graduate school instead, so I moved from North Carolina to Virginia. This was the first time being on my own as an adult, so here I am—I’m 21—and the first time living away from my parents, and it was sort of that perfect storm of freedom as a young adult plus questioning: not necessarily salvation but God’s plan and sovereignty and no one was hovering over my shoulder saying, “How’s your walk with the Lord?” It’s easy to walk the walk still and talk the talk over the phone or when you go home to visit—to act one way and do the other.

What kind of things were going on that you were drifting slowly from the Lord, but it started to happen quickly? 

It was in about six months—that’s how quickly it all began. I distinctly remember being in my car in a parking lot before I moved to Virginia, and I was trying to pray. I felt like my prayers were bouncing off the hood of my car, and I didn’t think that God was hearing me. I got angry and so mad at God, and I told Him in my anger that if this is how He treats His children, I don’t want any part of Him. I decided that day that everything I knew was wrong, and I was going to do and figure out what I’d been missing out on. Those rebellious seeds sprouted and took off like a wild vine.

Was it during that time that you met your husband? 

Not long after. I moved to Virginia in August 2009. I met my husband in August 2010, so within one year and during that year, if you did not know me, you would have thought being a Christian was the last thing you would have thought I was. Now again, I could pretend when I was around other Christians, but I also quickly figured out how to blend in with the world. It was at that time that I met my husband—I was actually in England at the time, participating in a summer abroad program for grad school, and we ended up meeting online because I didn’t know very many people in Virginia and the school I went to, oddly enough, was a Christian university, so the irony was not lost but I knew at the time I did not want to meet anyone at the university that was not a goal—I was too deep in the rebellion. I ended up meeting my husband online, and when I came back from England to return to Virginia, we went on our first date on August 3rd, 2010. It was a quick romance—we had much in common and similar interests. He had been in the Navy, so he had a lot of life experience and traveled—it was an instant connection, and he had no religious background—so he was perfect for me at the time. He didn’t meet his dad until he was 16, so he grew up with his mom, the family’s black sheep. You could say she moved far away from family, so it was just him and his mom, and he grew up completely non-religious. When he was in his teens and early 20s, he was exposed to a lot of different religions–he went to a mosque, he went to a Buddhist temple, went to a Mormon temple–he dabbled in pretty much every major religion, more from an anthropological sense of wanting to understand the cultures.  

Did you get married soon after you started dating?

Yeah. We got married on the second anniversary of our first date, August 3rd, 2012, in North Carolina, and about a week later, I started my first-year teaching. We were, you know, young, married, happy, and excited to be starting our lives together. 

What happened before your second anniversary? 

Because I was a teacher, I had summers off. We decided to take an epic road trip out west because he had grown up in Colorado, and I’d never traveled past the Mississippi, so I was very eager to explore. And we decided we have the time, we have the money–let’s do it, so we left North Carolina and went to Texas. We went and picked up his mom. A few weeks before our second anniversary, we traveled north through New Mexico, Colorado, up to Idaho, and back down. We were in Jackson Hall, Wyoming, and had just visited the Teton mountain range and had the trip of a lifetime, and we were exploring a coffee shop. I had just sat down with my drink, and he just turned to me and calmly and nonchalantly said, “I want a divorce; our marriage is over,” and this came out of nowhere. We had been on vacation, and we hadn’t been fighting, and I remember thinking, “Can we at least fight first?” It was out of the blue and almost like a sick joke. It was shocking and completely out of left field. After recovering from the shock, I tried to ask him if he was serious. And why was he doing this?

I mentioned earlier that my husband was in the Navy. I knew that he had PTSD; that was something that we had talked about when we were dating, but I honestly didn’t understand PTSD—it’s not just one of those things that you have and it goes away—it’s something that, much like depression, can flare up. I was very ignorant of it, and to a degree, my husband was too. One of the things about PTSD is it causes emotional detachment. The reason is it’s almost a defense mechanism—I’m going to push someone I love away so that I don’t drag them down the hole with me—I’m going to save them from my demons or darkness, so that’s one of the big reasons why so many people with PTSD end up not living, or their marriages tend not to work. It’s a very dark time for so many.

So, were you separated from your husband for a long time, or did you get divorced?

I convinced him to at least come back from our trip. He was still enrolled in college and had already paid the tuition. I told him that he might as well finish the semester, and he agreed. I felt like that was a win. At least I convinced him to come home. I thought he would be reasonable and understand once we returned to our routine. That was naïve. When we got home, we walked into a storm reflective of what was happening in our lives. Our apartment was inundated with a water leak from the unit above us. You can imagine the July heat in North Carolina; it was infested with mold, so we walked in from our marriage being over to you can’t live here anymore, so we went into survival mode by pushing our emotions to the back burner to let’s try to figure out where we’re going to sleep tonight. That got us through for about a month, and then school started back for me that August and my husband also was in school.

We coexisted as roommates for a while, and I was trying to navigate this new normal of him being home. We were married, but he was still adamant about leaving in December when his semester ended. I was wondering why and still didn’t understand, and he couldn’t quite explain it—it was one of those things of I’m doing this because I love you, which was so counterintuitive in my world—I was like, "Well, if you love me, why are you leaving me?" So, I couldn’t get past this. We lived in the same house for that semester but were strangers. I didn’t know my husband anymore—he was like a stranger. In December, a week before Christmas, literally about two days after his semester officially ended, he packed up his pickup and left. I didn’t even know where he was going, which was hard. All I knew was that he was going west. He had some family in Texas but wouldn’t tell me where he was going. I remember asking him, “Well if you have to leave, will you at least promise that we will have a goal of reconciliation?” Him telling me that our marriage was over is what jerked me out of my rebellion, and it’s what brought me back to God almost immediately. I distinctly remember that day when he told me that our marriage was over, going back to the hotel, locking myself in the bathroom and sitting on the floor sobbing and, for the first time in two or three years, praying and saying to God—"It hurts, God—it hurts." For the first time in a long time, I didn’t have to wear the mask—you know, the good little Christian girl mask—I was just raw, and I remember the Lord’s small voice so loud in my heart saying, “Are you done doing things your way?” And I knew I had a choice to make. I could keep doing it my way, which was not working despite my best efforts, or I could try it God’s way, and at that point, I was smart enough to know that my way was not working out. At that moment, I surrendered, and that changed not only my life but also both of our lives.

Can you tell us how God got your husband’s attention? 

One of the great things about God is that He’s in the details and always working, even when we don’t think He is or when we can’t see what’s going on. One of my favorite Bible stories is of Zacchaeus because, you know, we always sing the song he climbed up in a sycamore tree. still, then, that sycamore tree had to be planted however many years before Zacchaeus was ever born or to be big enough, tall enough, and strong enough to support a grown man climbing in it to see the Lord, but that’s just like God to plan and create a way when we’re not paying attention.

One thing that happened that Christmas before our trip was that we were actually at a Hobby Lobby and probably buying more Christmas decor that I did not need, and a local church group was out front passing out treat boxes. In the South, that’s a thing around Christmas. You know, people will pass out fruits and nuts and candies. It’s just kind of a thing, and I remember getting that and going to the car and breaking down in tears for no reason other than that it pricked my heart even then. However, I was still too much into the rebellion to surrender then, but when I surrendered in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, it was like God brought that moment to my mind. I remember telling my husband on the ride home from the West to North Carolina, that I needed to go to church; he asked why because we had only been to church once or twice since we’d known each other, and asked which church I would go to. I responded, “Well, maybe I should check out the church that gave us that box.” I didn’t know why, but I needed to find that church. I couldn’t remember the name of the church. I knew it started with the letter p, and in the South, there’s a church on every corner, so I was like, I’m going to have to try to narrow this down a little. I even called Hobby Lobby to see if the employer remembered a church group about eight months ago. He probably thought I was crazy and had no clue what I was talking about. Still, I ended up Googling the Baptist churches in the area that began with the letter p, and I had a result pop up. Hence, the first Sunday we were back, I went, and I remember sitting in the parking lot glued to my car—I was anxious and knew that going to church was the first big step back.

I had already repented, but walking into a church alone was different, so I mustered up the courage and marched on into an oasis. People were so kind and welcoming, and every sermon was like I thought there were cameras in my house because every sermon was perfectly tailored to what I’d been going through. It was surreal to me how God was ordering my steps. For the first time in a long time, I felt a deep hunger for the things of God, and it was exactly what I needed. It wasn’t doing things out of a checklist mentality or, if I don’t do this, I’m not a good Christian—for the first time, I craved praying and reading my Bible. Also, when I prayed for the first time, I felt I was talking to God. It was a fantastic feeling, even though my personal life was chaotic. I would go from depression to wanting to beat my husband up to wondering if I’ll be getting divorced after only two years of marriage—like, what in the world? This isn’t Hollywood. The church I started attending poured into me, and they saw someone hurting, and there was no judgment—it was just love. 

How did you two get back together?

Only God! My husband left a couple of weeks before Christmas, and it felt as though Satan had won. I thought God would save the day, and there was even a moment when he pulled off and got halfway up the driveway. He stopped the truck, threw it in the park, came running back in, and kissed me, and I thought I had my husband back—he wasn’t a stranger anymore, and it was the guy I knew, but then he went back to the truck and kept going, and I remember just sitting outside in the cold. I knew God was in control, and I had a choice to make. I could either trust God even when it did not seem possible or go back to trying to run my life, and I knew that was not an option, so I decided to trust God. It was interesting because every time I felt like it was too hard and I needed to walk away from this, God would send someone who knew nothing about what I was going through and give me a scripture to encourage me. This one lady at my church, who knew very little about what was going on in my life, gave me a towel, like one of those decorative towels that said Believe on it. I was doubting how God was going to do anything here—my husband moved out, and I had some people telling me what he did was grounds for divorce—he’s abandoned you. There’s nothing in scripture that says that if an unbelieving spouse walks away, you have to stay and that I had biblical grounds for a divorce, but when I would pray and ask God what to do, I never had peace about divorce. I even remember praying for God to let me out of this because it hurt too much holding on. I didn’t even know where he was living, but repeatedly, I would hear God saying, “Be still, trust me in the waiting.” I believe God used that time to show me that Jesus is all I needed, whether my marriage was restored or not—Jesus was enough.

It was interesting because, before this, I never realized how much of my identity as a woman was wrapped up in being a wife. It was almost like my self-worth was tied to my marriage, so I didn’t feel I knew who I was when he left. I had to learn who I was in Christ. My identity is found in Christ, not in any relationship, career, or anything else.

I found out through snooping—I’m not proud of it. It was a weak moment, and I still had passwords to emails and all that fun stuff, but I found out that he was in Washington State. I was happy to know where he was, but it scared me knowing how far he was because that’s 3,000 miles away; he might as well be on the moon, but God used that time to teach me to trust Him because I had no contact with my husband. I would try to text or call him occasionally and get a response, but it was indeed a separation.

During this time, I prayed fervently for that man. At first, the prayers were, God, please fix my marriage, please fix my marriage, please fix my marriage, and that mattered because I don’t think anyone wants their marriage to fail. However, as I grew in my faith, God began to prompt me to pray differently and more specifically for my husband. 

Instead of asking God to change him and make him come home, it became praying for his physical safety. I later found out my husband was dealing with a significant medical emergency during this time that he had not disclosed to me, but God would wake me up in the middle of the night telling me to pray for my husband’s health. It was heavy on my heart to pray for his salvation and claim him for God, and it sounded so odd. Still, I’m just like, you know what, God’s got me this far; whatever he tells me, I’m just going to go for it, whether it makes sense at the moment or not, and then I remember, you know, God would prompt me to pray for a hedge around him and growing up, I’d always heard you pray for a hedge of protection around someone. I didn’t understand what that meant, so I started digging through the Bible about where we get the phrase “a hedge of protection” and found that it differed from what I thought a hedge of protection was. Yes, it’s like building a fence around someone. Still, many times in the Bible, a wall of thorns was planted, so of course, thorns keep the enemies out. Still, they would also keep the sheep from trying to get out because the thorns would guide them to where they needed to be, and once I understood this, I said, “God—yes, definitely put some thorns around that man!” But it was more to steer him toward the Lord, and I began to pray that God would put people on his path to share Christ with him. I distinctly remember in May—he had been gone for almost six months—and I went to church on Wednesday night, and I was talking to the pastor and his wife, who were excellent; there were so many times when I crying and they were calm and ministered to me, giving me biblical counsel and I told them that I felt like I finally passed the test and finally learned that God’s enough, whether he fixes my marriage or whether I never see him again—God is enough.

I kid you not; my husband called me out of the blue the next day. I hadn’t heard his voice in at least three months, and he begged me if I was willing to take him back. He said he regretted leaving and how things had happened and wanted to know if anything was left to come home to. And I said, “Oh, my goodness, God, you answered my prayer.” I was in shock, but in my heart, I had thought—the way that I had told God this was going to work was he was going to save my husband; he was going to call me saying, “Honey, I’ve been saved—I’m sorry—we’re going to fix our marriage, and we were going to live happily ever after,” but that wasn’t quite how God decided to do it. He worked on my husband to the point where my husband wanted to reconcile our marriage, but my husband still had no interest in God whatsoever. So the school year was over in June, and he came back to North Carolina for a few weeks, and we had some very long talks, and I got a lot of counsel from my pastor and his wife just because I didn’t want to jump into anything because of what my heart was telling me. I wanted to make sure I listened to God and didn’t want to make any more mistakes. Of course, my family and friends didn’t want me to move out to Washington, and they were concerned that my husband would leave me again. I had a church, career, and support in North Carolina. I agreed with what they were saying, but in my heart, I just had an overwhelming peace that I needed to go to Washington—for how long, I did not know, but I knew where I needed to be. I waited for my niece to be born in July, then a few days later, packed up my tiny Ford Focus with everything I could fit. It took me three days, but I got to Liberty Lake, Washington, and arrived there one year to the day my husband told me our marriage was over. We began that slow, arduous process of rebuilding trust, tried to forge our new normal, and learned that rebuilding a marriage is not a happily ever after thing.

Each of us had baggage that we brought with us, and it was more than just what fit in the trunk of my car. You know, he still wasn’t a Christian. I was very different from what I was when he had left—we had to learn about each other all over again, but one of the things that happened when I moved there was, I knew I needed to find a church—a local body of believers to plug into. Of course, being so far away, I thought of using Google to see what I could find. A small church plant was only a year old, and within walking distance of our apartment, so I checked it out because it seemed pretty biblical from what they believed on their church website. It was so interesting; at the first service, I noticed they were using the same hymn book as the church I had been attending in North Carolina, and so many other things were reminiscent of home. When I walked into the church, it felt like I was home. 

I met the pastor after the service. He discovered I was new to the area and asked if my husband was a Christian. I told him, “Not yet,” but I knew God didn’t bring me to Washington only to do half of the job—whatever He does, He’s going to complete. It just so happened that the pastor was a Navy veteran with a heart for veterans. There are no coincidences with God. So I got plugged into that church, but my husband was leery of organized religion, but he forged a relationship with the pastor. They bonded over their shared experiences in the Navy, and I remember he came home one day after they had coffee together, and he said, “That guy is the real deal.” I asked him what he meant, and he shared that he’s not fake—he’s an authentic Christian. Now and then, my husband started coming to church with me without me asking him to, and he began to develop a hunger to know more. One time, we came home from church the following May, so I’d been there almost a year in Liberty Lake, and springtime in the mountains, it’s muddy, wet, and cold. We came home from church, and he was pacing the apartment to the point that I thought he would wear a hole in the carpet. My husband doesn’t cry—I think I saw him crying once when his dog died and another time when our son was born, but he was crying with tears pouring down his face saying, "I have to talk to a priest—I’ve got to speak to a priest". I told him, but you’re not Catholic. Then he said, “I’ve done too much in my life—there’s no way God would ever want me—I’ve crossed too many lines and crossed a point of no return, but maybe if I talk to a priest, they can do something.” I responded, “Well, why don’t you call Pastor Greg? He’s probably still at the church. Why don’t you talk to him?” And he said, “Okay, that makes sense.” I called Pastor Greg for him because he was so upset and asked, “Would you be willing to talk to Jason?” And, of course, he said yes and asked Jason if he could meet him on the mountain at Liberty Lake Regional Park. I was sitting at home praying because I sensed a shift in my husband. He was under such conviction and agitated. He was gone for 2-3 hours in the misty rain and mud, and finally, he came home and didn’t say a word—he took off his shoes, cleaned himself up, and went to the garage, and I was left wondering—Okay, what happened? He was gone for 2-3 hours. Did he have a Moses experience with a burning bush? Did he get saved? So, I texted Pastor Greg, who said he just asked many questions, and I answered them. I wanted to rush God, but I knew it had to be His timing and way.

About a month later, in June, I was at church. My husband had been going every week with me, which was not the norm for him. But that week, he said he wasn’t going that morning, and I was thrown off. I asked if he was sick, but he said he was fine. So, I went by myself, and right before the service started, the pastor announced that we would go down to the Spokane River for a baptism after church. It’s a relatively small church. I’m looking around like everyone here had already been baptized, and then I think, well, maybe a kid got saved, and I didn’t know or realize. At about that time, my husband strolled in with his motorcycle helmet in one hand and a bag of clothes in the other. He had the biggest smile on his face, and so did Pastor Greg, so I was a mess when he was getting baptized and so excited. I talked to him afterward and asked him when he gave his life to Christ, and he shared that after he spoke with the pastor on the mountain, he started to read the Bible later that week, and everything clicked, and all of it made sense—God is real! 

After getting baptized, his relationship with the Lord accelerated, and he would wake up in the morning and read the Bible, get involved in church, and go to Bible college to learn more scripture. God helped him with PTSD, and his quick temper began to go away. The emotional distance, numbness, and callousness started to be replaced with gentleness and more self-awareness—God was healing him, and it was miraculous. We even burned the divorce papers. God specializes in the impossible—only He can do such things and never wastes our pain. 

Estelle

Regulatory Oversight Specialist

These are Estelle's favorite scriptures that ministered to her during her healing process from trauma.

Estelle shared her story on Truth, Talk & Testimonies

Estelle's testimony is also on VictoryEmbraced: Truth, Talk & Testimonies podcast platforms

Did you grow up in a Christian home?

I grew up with relatives who were Christian. My mom was a Christian, but my father was not, and they got divorced when I was a baby. My mom introduced me to the Lord, and my grandmother and aunts knew the Lord. I was told that I was around 5 years old when I became saved and accepted Jesus in my life to save me from my sins. My mom asked me if I accepted Jesus, and I said, “Yeah, mom, and I felt Him. So that's what I'm told. For most of my childhood, I loved the Lord and spent much time in church. 

You shared with me that you went through trauma and abuse—can you share some of that? 

Yeah, my stepfather abused me. My mom remarried when I was about 4 years old, and my stepfather was an alcoholic. When I was 11, for a prolonged period, he was abusive to me. He would molest me—it wasn’t as bad physically as what I hear a lot of people experience in a situation like that, but I think for me, it was the psychological trauma of it, the way I was groomed and tricked and manipulated—it was very devastating and traumatizing because I also wanted to have a close relationship and father figure, but he took advantage of that. I have a good relationship with my biological father, but I didn’t see him very much. So, my stepdad took advantage of an 11-year-old girl who wanted to have a wholesome father figure in her life. It was just very traumatizing, and it happened over a prolonged period. I was a zombie as a kid because I couldn’t process what was happening to me. 

You told me you received help in the church. 

Yes. In my junior year of high school, I didn’t have a safe place to stay because my mom was in the hospital, and I was alone with my stepdad. To my knowledge, no one was aware of my abuse. He stopped abusing me at that point, but it wasn’t safe for me to be there. One of my aunts, a Christian, came to check on me, and she discerned it wasn’t safe for me there. I believe that was the Holy Spirit. I thank God she checked on me, and for about a month, until my mom got out of the hospital, I stayed with my assistant pastor’s family. They treated me like I was part of their family. It was one of the best experiences of my life because I could see what a healthy marriage was and what a Christian household could look like—it was just a wonderful experience for me. It gave me a great impression of myself and something to think back on even when I grew up. It served as a helpful gauge for me to evaluate relationships. God used that experience. 

God used that experience there in that household. Did anyone know what was going on at home?

I don’t think anyone knew at that point that someone had molested me. The interesting thing is that going back to when I was 11, I think people knew something was going on with me because I remember meeting with the pastor of my church at one point. He asked me if my stepfather was touching me, which to me was an odd question—I don’t understand a lot of the circumstances that were happening in my life back then, but at that point, I think I couldn’t even admit it to myself, and I knew I was lying to him, but I told him no. Also, a man asking me was uncomfortable, even though my pastor was someone I respected and was a safe person. Still, when I was living with my assistant pastor’s family, I think they most likely knew I came from a troubled home. My stepfather was an alcoholic, and obviously, my aunt didn’t think it was safe for me to be there. I don’t think they knew the extent of what was happening. Eventually, my mom and I did go to a therapist and would talk about how his alcoholism affected me. That was when I had many memories resurface because, for a while, I was blocking everything out as a protection. It was too much for me to want to admit or face—I think I was around 17 or 18 when I went to that therapy session with my mom. I tried to talk about what happened to me, but I did it vaguely. I blacked out and don’t remember much from that session because it was traumatizing. 

Did you go to college then, and if you did, what for?

I did end up going to a Bible college. The pastor of my church, who loved the Lord and Scripture, inspired me. He was so serious about the Word of God, and it was fascinating when he would share about all these fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, and I would be on the edge of my seat. And he would get so emotional about what Jesus did for us—he was very analytical, scholarly, and innovative. Jesus’ death, and the grace and mercy He gave us forgiving all our sins caused him to weep at the pulpit. This made a great impression on me, and I wanted to learn more about the Bible. I felt so blessed by my church. I would go to youth group, and I went to church on Sundays and Wednesdays regularly. That might sound like a lot, but I loved being around other believers and receiving support. It was a place of stability, and I wanted to learn more about the Bible and pay forward how the church helped me.

When you started college, you took ministry courses but veered off. What caused you to get off track?

There were a couple of things—I mentioned that I viewed my pastor as analytical, and I’m very detail-oriented and analytical, so while studying theology, I began to notice things in the Bible that I thought were contradictions, but we know God never contradicts Himself or the Word. I knew Jesus wants to save everyone, but yet narrow is the way—and there is a hell. I had doubts and questions. I think I was missing discipleship—looking back, some things were missing in my walk with Christ, but the idea of hell was so triggering to me and my trauma because I grew up feeling in danger. Something I didn’t mention is that I did try to get help as a child and reach out to someone, but I don’t think I thoroughly explained what was happening to me, and the abuse continued. I tried, and I was just a kid, and it was a lot to process. 

I ended up standing up to my abuser. One day, I snapped and started screaming at him—exceptionally intensely. I was a skinny pip-squeak of a kid, and I stood up to this grown man, and he actually apologized to me, and he never did it again, but it could have happened again as I got older because he was still drinking, and my aunt was noticing things that I was not safe. That dangerous environment compromised my safety. I always thought that I was in danger, and I couldn’t handle the idea of someone being in danger of going to hell. When I was in danger, I put a stop to it, and I think that the idea of people going to hell is just so triggering to me. And I thought, oh, people are in danger, and I felt responsible—I didn’t know how to save these people. And we know that we’re not the ones who save them—Jesus does—I didn’t trust God that He’s responsible for saving them. I couldn’t handle the idea of hell, and I had a lot of questions. I think I had a lot of pride, and I started to drift away from the Lord and think that I didn’t need Him very much. There were a lot of things going on, and eventually, I became a closet atheist while in Bible college. I remember reading the story of the prodigal son a bunch of times. I felt like I didn’t believe it. Should I admit to myself that I didn’t believe it? I thought that maybe God wanted honest disbelief over blind belief, and I ended up throwing my faith away. I didn’t share with many people what I was going through. Some of my close friends knew, and they were pretty devastated. I graduated from college and lived on my own with roommates—For at least 15 years, I lived as a nonbeliever.

Did you get involved in the New Age and things like that?

Yes, at first, I started as a secular humanist and didn’t believe in anything supernatural. I still wanted to be an ethical person and have morals. I studied philosophy and ethics, and it was so empty, and there’s no philosophical system that’s good or comparable to what the Bible teaches us. Nothing that I could find was satisfactory, and it felt very empty. There was a part of me that still craved spirituality. Also, I was hurting—for the most part, I had managed to keep things together even though I had this trauma that affected almost every area of my life, and I always knew something was wrong with me but managed to keep it under wraps.

In 2013, my half-brother, who had been in the military and had gone to Afghanistan and Iraq, went missing; we found him, and he had committed suicide. There were a lot of circumstances around that, and it was re-triggering to me, as well as things related to communication. Things with communication triggered me my whole life because I tried to reach out for help, but I didn’t communicate well, so communication was a big deal for me. I found out about my brother through someone I was friends with on Facebook, and they said, “Oh, I’m so sorry. I saw a news report.” I searched on Google to see if there were any leads, and I saw from an online newspaper that my brother passed away. I called a family member, and she told me she knew nothing. It was so traumatic. I called the police, and they were cold towards me because I wanted to know who in my family knew. I then called my dad, which was the hardest thing ever. I decided that I needed to tell my dad that his son had passed away. We hoped that maybe he was just eccentric and went off-grid and did something crazy. But that whole thing with my brother re-triggered many things, and my life spiraled from there. I just needed something, so I was going to therapy and doing different treatments. I was also more open to spirituality, so I started listening to certain preachers who watered down the gospel. Hence, the teaching was more palatable to me. I was more open to that kind of spirituality, but I also dabbled in things like Reiki, got deep into yoga, and got my yoga teacher certification, which they taught as a spiritual practice. I also got into Native American shamanism.

You shared that you had PTSD, but you don’t have it anymore. How did the PTSD go away?

Praise Jesus, I don’t have PTSD anymore. I knew my brother had PTSD from the military, so I was curious about PTSD and did some research and had already been going to regular therapy. I talked to my therapist about it and was watching videos and hearing people describe flashbacks and I thought, “Holy smokes,” that’s what I experienced all the time. I didn’t know that’s what it was, so whenever there was a specific trigger, I would re-experience certain situations in my childhood, where someone miscommunicated with me. I would feel like I was in physical danger because of that miscommunication as a kid. I had this false belief that if I didn’t communicate well, I would be in danger. So, if I had a simple miscommunication with a friend, I would feel in physical danger. I would describe it as I felt I was in a burning building and needed to get out. I felt such an urgency, and living an everyday life like that became difficult because you communicate with people regularly. There were other triggers, too, and I saw a lot of specialists who claimed to be able to help with PTSD, so I did anything I could think of, and a lot of the things helped take the edge off of the symptom. I did cognitive-behavioral therapy; I went to an intensive program that you would go to almost every day, and they did a lot of group therapy work. I tried dialectical behavioral therapy and prolonged exposure therapy. EMDR, dance therapy, neurofeedback, mindfulness meditation, and all the new-age stuff—I tried anything because I was desperate. They gave me temporary relief, but they weren’t healing me. When I re-dedicated my life to Christ and became a believer again, I did cognitive processing therapy because it helps you identify your false beliefs and determine a more accurate belief. After all, their theory is that your emotions and triggers are based on a particular belief. So, if you pinpoint what your beliefs are, you can replace them with more accurate ones. I felt like I was spiraling and not getting better, and the main therapist I went to was trying to get me to accept that I had PTSD. It’s something I’ll need to live with for the rest of my life and manage the symptoms instead of looking for a cure, but I knew I couldn’t sustain it and was highly motivated to heal. I was also scared because therapy wasn’t working—I tried everything and worked so hard and was highly motivated to heal—I was going into depression and threw so much money at different therapies and treatments and couldn’t fix myself, so I gave up and out of desperation, I prayed and said, “God, I don’t even know if you’re real, and if you are real, I don’t even know if you would want me back, but I can’t do this anymore. I don’t have a solution—you’re my only hope. If you want me back, I’ll do things your way, and we’ll see if you can do something with this mess." I completely surrendered. 

I learned that it was my trauma that caused me to go down the rabbit trail of not believing. When I look back, seeds were planted along the way, and even when I wasn’t serving the Lord, there were so many situations, and I know the Lord was carrying me. After surrendering to Jesus, I bought a Bible, started praying, and attended church. I was still going to cognitive processing therapy. The reason why I was open to going was I asked my therapist if I could use scripture to learn and come to know more accurate beliefs—I was committed to doing things God’s way, and one by one, using scriptures, my false beliefs were replaced by accurate beliefs rooted in God’s Word. I stopped going to therapy and doing what the Bible says to take every thought captive, so when I felt like I was in physical danger, I would remember that the Lord is my protector. 

Earlier, I described how when I would have a flashback, I would feel like I was in a burning building, and I would think about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and how they were in a fiery furnace because that was their punishment. After all, there was a rule about worshipping the king, and they refused to worship anyone but their God. The king looked into the furnace and saw a fourth person there, so I would remind myself that the Lord was with me. Isaiah 43:2 was such a meaningful scripture for me. I knew I wasn’t in danger, but I would think about the Lord being with me and protecting me. Those flashbacks were the most horrific thing—I just felt tormented, and they were excruciatingly painful, and it would take me days to recover from them. And they were just physically challenging—my body was constantly in crisis mode, so it took a toll on my health, too, but I learned to praise God during my suffering. I learned that despite suffering, I could rejoice, and that God would use these circumstances to build character. I have the joy of the Lord and complete freedom in Him—what He has done for me; He can do for anyone! 

Debi Rutkowski

Former nurse, group leader of Delighting in the Lord women's ministry, and involved with the cancer support and healthcare ministries at Calvary Chapel of Chester Springs, PA. A wife, mother of six, and soon-to-be grandmother of eleven to Stan’s family.

These are Debi's favorite scriptures that have ministered to her during life challenges.

Debi shared her testimony on Truth, Talk & Testimonies

When did you come to know the Lord?

I was 21 years old when I accepted the Lord into my life. I was actually at a Keith Green memorial concert that his wife, Melody, was organizing around the country after he tragically passed in a plane accident with their two children. My mom’s Bible study group was praying for me and was taking a bus to go down, so they asked if I wanted to go along. Reluctantly, I would say I went along because I knew about Christianity and thought that “I’m not going to be one of them.”. So, we went to the concert, and I was curious about Melody Green because I couldn’t believe that it had been about three to six months since she had lost her husband and two children. I wondered how she could share this and talk about the Lord after she’s gone through that and must still be hurting so much. That pulled at my heart the whole time when she was talking; I was thinking, “Wow, there’s something to this, you know?” That day, the Lord made me stand up because in my heart, when they were giving the alter call, in my heart, I was struggling and didn’t want to stand up because my mom’s going to be crying and all over me and everything–That’s what was in my head. Still, my heart was pounding, and I knew God was calling. I’ve always said that it must have been an angel that came over there and stood me up because the next thing I knew, I was standing up. After I gave my life to Christ, I went to the back, and they gave me information and the Lord took me from that point and took me to different churches and different friends that I would meet—He helped me to mature along the way. 

Your testimony is about the goodness of God, and you have gone through so many things. What are some things that you have gone through?

Well, some things were from my life choices, and others were just like—everybody has those things. We all go through hard times. But I was pregnant and unmarried at sixteen and had my daughter Erica, and soon after, I got pregnant again and, unfortunately, had an abortion and married her father. It was not a good relationship and was abusive many times, and our marriage didn’t last long. We got divorced, and I was a single mom for seven years, so those were tough times, and then the Lord brought me my husband, Stanley.

When I was a single mom, I had a wonderful couple who took me under their wing, and Esther picked me out of the crowd at church. I don’t know if they saw me coming in with my two kids or what, but she was always good at listening to the Lord. He must have sent her because she and her husband were incredible to me. Esther found a nursing school in Norristown, PA, for licensed practical nursing to start and see what God does. I called the nursing school and was told that they had a waiting list, and eight people were on it, but they said they would call me when a spot was available. Not even a week later, she called me—that was the Lord. The next hurdle was how to pay for it because I was on welfare at the time as a single mom. The director said, “I think there’s a program for single mothers to get educated,” she encouraged me to talk to my caseworker, and she gave me the program’s name and got me approved for it. It was the Lord because it paid for everything, allowing me to continue my education and become a registered nurse. I went to Montgomery County and completed the program; the program paid for everything, including my gas and daycare. It was the Lord’s hand in that whole thing to take care of me and watch over me—His goodness.

When I went to college later on to become a registered nurse, Esther and her husband would have me over for dinner once per week and make me go upstairs and take a nap, and when I woke up, we would have dinner together. They would pray over me, read the Word, do some little devotion or something, and then send me on my way home to get the kids. Her husband would change the oil in my car and even taught me stuff like that. They were a blessing in my life, and then there were so many other people in the church I was going to where Andy and Esther went; the church came alongside me, and there was a mechanic at the church who would fix my car and inspect it for nothing. That’s all God’s hand; He cared for me and His goodness. 

I met my husband, Stan, when we were around thirty-two, and I had two children—my daughter Erica and my son Jared. So I was single all that time and met Stan at a Christian coffeehouse, and we were both on staff there, and God started working on our hearts, and it was three months later we were married—we just knew He wanted us together and it was something divine. We then had four children together and have been through many painful things together. It was hard at first as a blended family to mesh everything together, and there were some areas we needed to work out with my outside family, too; there were issues we needed to work out. 

Doctors diagnosed my husband with a muscle autoimmune disease about ten years into our marriage. He’s a carpenter, and suddenly, he started noticing he was feeling weak and exhausted and would lose his balance sometimes. He’s been under treatment for that and stable for about twenty years now. Later in our marriage, doctors diagnosed Stan with prostate cancer, and in 2008, doctors diagnosed me with pancreatic cancer—a neuroendocrine tumor. It’s a rare type of cancer, and it’s slow growing—it will never go away unless the Lord heals me, but it’s metastatic now, and it is active at this point but very slow growing. So I’m just under surveillance, and the doctors are watching. I’ve had different treatments over the years. We’ll see how it works out this time. 

I could see the Lord’s goodness through the body of Christ. So many people came alongside us when we were struggling with one diagnosis after the next. We had a growing family when Stan worked in the Carpenters Union. I remember 2008 was tough with the economy and the stock market dropping, and they didn’t have work at the union. The Carpenters Union laid him off for at least a year, forcing him to seek side work. This coincided with my cancer diagnosis, creating a troublesome time. All our medical costs were crazy, and I had a friend from high school who took it upon herself to organize a fundraiser for us. And it’s just like, you know, all those people coming around us and helping us. A few people gave my kids Christmas that year because we didn’t have money from work, and we would get anonymous checks in the mail, cash in an envelope, and groceries at the door. 

How do we look for the Lord’s goodness?

Sometimes, when hard things happen to you, you may tend to lean into self-pity or depression–actually, if you stay in self-pity–it will lead to depression, and then nothing good’s going to happen after that. You have to look for the Lord’s goodness in your life. Something that Esther taught me, and I used to listen to Elizabeth Elliott on the radio all the time, too, and she would always say, Go and help someone else. When you’re in a bad spot, help someone else. And I would do that, and it was such a blessing to help others—I would get blessed, but that’s God’s economy. We lay down our life like He laid down His life for us. 

Another way that the Lord brought goodness out of all the hard things, even with my abortion. I wanted to mention that in case you are out there who have had abortions and you’re keeping that secret or are in pain. I volunteered at Genesis Women’s Clinic in Pottstown, PA two years ago. God allowed me to take this horrible thing and be able to share and encourage these women that they don’t have to do this—you will regret it, and it’s an awful thing to have on your conscience. He also allowed me to run into others—even some relatives that I found out later had an abortion and some of my good friends—to let them know about the forgiveness of God. The Lord washes us white as snow when we confess our sins. And 1 John 1:9 says, He’s faithful and to cleanse us from all iniquity. When we confess our sins to Him, we’re whiter than snow, so we no longer need to carry that burden. And the Lord just always reminds me of that; even if there’s a little thought that comes into my mind about guilt—looking back at the guilt of that, the Lord has washed me clean from that, but the goodness of God is that He allows me to encourage others that you can have that forgiveness too. 

May you share about the women’s Bible studies Delighting in the Lord?

I believe they meet on Thursdays at the church and on Thursday evenings, and I think a couple of groups for working women. Still, Brenda Harris and Stacy Davis write these studies, and what I appreciated about it when I first learned about the studies when I first came to Calvary Chapel, Chester Springs, PA, after they wrote the Bible studies, was that elders and pastors go over them to make sure that they’re biblically sound. So, it was essential to me that the elders overlooked that. I’ve enjoyed everyone I’ve done so far, and I’m currently the co-facilitator with another person in our groups, so I couldn’t encourage you more to come out to that. So, we had a lesson and broke into small groups to do our homework. They’re all available on Amazon, or you can go to the Calvary Chapel, Chester Springs website and download them, print them out, and watch the simulcast from there. So, if you’re not in Pennsylvania, you can still watch them, and it’s free. Their Facebook page has their media outlets and past lessons on Google and Apple Podcasts, and you can find them on YouTube, too. 

Is there anything else God is putting on your heart to encourage others?

Do not be ashamed of your testimony. I had been ashamed of some parts of my testimony, especially about the abortion or being a single mom pregnant out of wedlock when I was younger. I felt like I was not a good enough Christian, but the Lord reminded me that He forgave and washed me and wants me to share my story to encourage others. If you have shame as I did, please give that to the Lord–it’s not Him–Satan wants us to be ashamed of who we are or what we’ve gone through, and God loves us just the way we are.  

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